6.13 - Principles of Parenting, Part 2

In this episode, we continue last week's discussion on parenting, getting into some of the practical issues of instruction, obedience, and correction. Join us as we look to the proverbs for God's insight into practical parenting issues.

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Paul and Noah both preach and teach with the Cedar Park church of Christ in Cedar Park, TX. You can visit our site at: https://www.cedarparkchurchofchrist.org/

Transcript

Paul: 0:33

Well, welcome back. It is a time for a Proverbs project. Part two. I think this is episode 13 last week. We started Noah principles of parenting and we didn't get very far and discovered there's just so much there. This is just going to be a two parter. It could easily be much more than just two 20 plus minute segments. Yeah. Of this and the journey and the Proverbs project, but we're interested in, in the principles that we find in the Proverbs that will help us to, to set ourselves up to succeed as God defined success. Right. In bringing up children, I'm citing the Ephesians 6, 4, the nurture and admonition of the Lord. This is all about what the Lord wants us to do because the, these children were stewards, they belong to him. Yeah. So we're just trying to do what the Lord wants us to do in raising and bringing up the next generation.

Noah: 1:27

Yeah, that it is One of if not the most important task we have at hand if we are parents if we have children then one of the ultimate tasks that we have been given by our creator is To care for and steward these souls and to raise them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. Yeah, there, that is an extremely weighty calling. It, it is in some ways burdensome in that way. Right? There is a weight of responsibility and we ought to feel that weight. But it does not have to be a, it does not have to be an unpleasant burden. There will be unpleasant times. I have had plenty of those in my five years as a parent so far. And I'm sure there will be more and of, of greater variety in the future. But one thing that you've mentioned in previous episodes is the part of the. Part of the point of the Proverbs project is that these, this is God's wisdom for a life that is not only bringing God more glory, but is more enjoyable because we are living by his design. I don't know if there's many many areas where that is more easily seen than in the area of parenting. Yes. Yes.

Paul: 2:49

So I think, you know, we, we left off the last episode. We were, we were dealing with the part of the parenting that has to do with rules and instructions. I mean, we're dealing with the discipline side of this and part of the discipline that Is, is the, the reproof Proverbs 29, 15, the rod is in Proverbs 29, 15, along with some other. We'll maybe talk about the rod a little bit, but the reproof side, which is the instruction, the, the, the rules, and we expect compliance and obedience and the right kind of obedience. But back to the discipline side, there's just something in Proverbs 19, verse 18, Noah, as it relates to the disciplining of our children, he says, Proverbs 19 and verse 18, discipline your son. While there is hope, do not set your heart on his destruction. I like that while there is hope. So that, that tells us that there is a time we have a short window. We're not going to have our kids with us forever. And I'm just going to say this, I don't know another way to put it. It doesn't take long to create a brat. So while there is hope, I mean, you, you want, I've heard before, start early, stay consistent, stay consistent is. Is hard.

Noah: 4:03

Oh, that's tough. But to

Paul: 4:04

start early, that's, that's so important.

Noah: 4:09

It is. And

Paul: 4:10

so connecting with that, Proverbs 13 in verse 24. Whoever spares a rod hates his son, but I want you to focus on this, the latter part. He who loves him is diligent. This translation is diligent to discipline him. Other translations have the, the discipline early or promptly. And I think that gives us the sense of the diligence as it connects to discipline to do this early. I think that's so important.

Noah: 4:36

Yeah. I think those two passages that you just brought up connect. An idea that we need to get in our minds. So We've we've talked about we talked about in the previous episode about how instruction is is Given with the belief and the intent and the desire for obedience to that instruction And the discipline is when those instructions and that reproof is not accepted But notice in both proverbs 13 and proverbs 19 that you just quoted That the Holy Spirit is giving us the reason for this discipline. So the con when, when we, when we expect obedience and we give consequences, when obedience is not rendered to an instruction, we're not just doing that. We're doing it from a place of Proverbs 13 tells us a place of love. We're doing this because we love our children. And if we're disciplining them. Without love, that's a problem,

Paul: 5:39

right?

Noah: 5:39

That will lead to more and greater issues. Proverbs chapter 19 that you quoted says we're doing it from a place of hope. I think that is an incredible verse to hold onto. Because there are times when you're going through this process and it's not pleasant and it's difficult and you feel like you have no hope. But in fact, when we discipline in this way, we're doing it from the perspective that there will be benefit. There will be a greater good that's served through this discipline, through this unpleasant period. We're doing it from a from a perspective of hope. So we, we give consequences for disobedience, this, this rod of, of correction. We give these consequences from a place of love, from a place of hope. We do it to instruct. I, I don't remember yet if we've talked about Proverbs 22, 15, but Proverbs 22, 15 says, Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him. When we are engaged in this type of, of discipline, this type of correction, it is instructive. There is a, there is a learning that's going on, and that's part of the intention of it. Follies bound up in the heart of a child. We're there to instruct them with the consequences. The consequences are instructive.

Paul: 7:04

Yeah, you know, so maybe this is, this is a point to talk about. I mean, because we've referenced several passages so far that have used the term rod and you know, There's, there's something to that rod of correction that we've talked about reproof, but there's also the rod, the rod of correction, Proverbs 22 and verse 15, the rod of correction, Proverbs chapter 23, the rod of correction again, Proverbs 29, 15. And there are others Proverbs 13, 24, whoever spares a rod hates his son. So there, there is a component or a side of the discipline. that involves, I'm calling it the spanking of the child.

Noah: 7:48

Yeah.

Paul: 7:49

And you know, I, I've seen two extremes. I I've, I've seen one extreme Noah in my lifetime of the parent who says, look, I was raised by a very strong handed and strict disciplinarian, which basically meant what they were saying is I got spanked for every offense. You know, if I spilt my milk at the separate table. I got spanked for it, you know, and then the other extreme is the other parent that was, that was raised by a very passive parent or sometimes even a single parent and, and they never got spanked for anything. And, and there's, I think there's reason for that. And, and there's a psychological component. And that's a discussion for another time about why a parent would choose not to spank. Yeah. But, but the point is there's two extremes. I've offered this with regards to the spanking of a child. My input is look for the willful, deliberate, the own, what I call own purpose defiance. I do not believe that the wisdom of Proverbs has spanked the child for everything. Absolutely not. But he does say that foolishness is bound up in the heart of the child. You quoted this, Proverbs 22, 15, the rod of correction would drive it far from him. You know, there are times where based upon whatever this foolish, defiant behavior is that is in your child, he doesn't say that the time out would drive it far from him or the talking. Yeah. And there's a side of the instruction in the talk in the warning. He doesn't say that's going to drive it at him. He says it's a rod of correction.

Noah: 9:27

Yeah. Yeah. The, the fact is this is a difficult subject for us, I think, because I have not met a parent that finds any amount of pleasure or satisfaction in the process of spanking. It's not a pleasant process. And so we, I think many of us naturally shy away from it. We, we are uncomfortable with it. But what we have to keep in mind is we are, we are inflicting a small amount of pain now. To save them from a world of pain later. And Proverbs explicitly says that in Proverbs 23. It says, do not withhold discipline. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. And that may sound super extreme to us when we're looking at our three year old, four year old, five year old, six year old. And we're going, you know, it's They're, they're five, they're six, kids will be kids, and that's how we want to react. But like what you said, they are capable of willful defiance. And in cases of willful defiance in a five year old, six year old, if that is not, if that's not corrected, what will that grow into? That will grow into a, a person who is walking down the path. It's walking down the path towards the dead.

Paul: 10:54

Yeah. You know, we stated in the, in the first episode, I think very early on about Proverbs 24 verses three and four, wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. We're talking about the Lord's wisdom. We're talking about the Lord's knowledge. We're talking about what the word says, not what some self proclaimed expert or somebody just because you have, you know, PhD before your name or something, doesn't mean that what you're saying or what you're writing. has the Lord's approval.

Noah: 11:20

Right.

Paul: 11:20

And I hope, I hope we acknowledge that, but Noah, I've read some things. I've got him in a file folder in my office that, you know, I just want to share one. This was from self proclaimed experts that these people in the medical profession with all these degrees attached to their name. Yeah. I had done all these studies that they said and they came up to this conclusion and this is a quote, Noah, in this journal, spanking children can cause long term developmental damage and even lower the child's IQ. What they were saying is it reduces the brain's gray matter. Hmm. And there are people that read that and say, that's right. That's right. Right. That's right. And that, well, that means I'm going to have to dismiss at least five or six passages in the Proverbs or redefine them in some way. Maybe not completely dismiss them, just redefine them.

Noah: 12:15

Right. And that it's tempting to try to recontextualize and redefine. The, the wisdom of, of the Proverbs, but it was not intended. It was not intended to be redefined in that way. It was intended to be understood and applied with wisdom it's intended. And that's important for us to understand. I, in the last episode, you mentioned the idea of training up a child in the way he should go where she should go. There is that individual component. And children are all going to, are all going to have individual personalities that are going to respond differently to different types of situations and discipline. But the principle in the Proverbs is that there is this rod of correction. And if we try to dispense with that altogether, we're walking down a dangerous path. I think one of the things that has been most sobering to me. I've shared with you, Paul, in private conversation. You know, Michaela and I, in our parenting, we have seen the cycle in our own family of where sometimes we are very on top of it with parenting and specifically with discipline and sometimes we're not. And we can see, we can look back and we can witness the, the ups and downs of that cycle. We can witness the aftermath of when we have not followed the principles of scripture. And if we're willing, like, that, that's just me being honest. We can look back, we can see our own failures, and in five years time, we'll look back over the five years that are coming, and we'll see it some more, where we will fail to live up to this. And that's probably been the most sobering thing for me, is that this responsibility that we've been given as parents is so great. We have been given the responsibility to instruct these children. to train them in the, in the, in the admonition of the Lord. And we are, we're held responsible, not only for how we instruct, but we're, we're held accountable for how well we hold our children accountable to that instruction. So if we're going to offer instruction, we need to make sure that there's an expectation of obedience to that instruction. And if, if there's not obedience to that instruction, we're held accountable for if we. follow through on consequences for that disobedience. We have to make sure that we recognize this is part of our responsibility as parents. And that's not fun. It's, it's difficult and it's hard to be consistent. But if we are going to give instructions and we are required as parents to give instructions, if we're going to give instructions, then we have to be willing to follow through with consequences.

Paul: 15:10

Yes. Amen. And do the best you can. We've talked about multiple counselors get, get advice from true and trusted sources. I mean, I think the local church, y'all, to have two or three people who have already raised their kids, male, female perspective, mom, dad perspective you raise boys, you raise girls, you raise both boys and girls. You've seen some of these things. The reason I think that's so valuable, Noah, especially very early in the parenting of children is I've said to parents before, do the best as you can to parent, I call it parent on the same page. And it's possible to do that and not be agreed in every area of judgment, you know, should we do this, but you've got a parent on the same page because the child will play one parent against the other. And that leaves one of them to be the quote, bad guy. I mean, if, if, if mom has to do all the spanking or a dad does all the spanking, mom says, well, wait till dad gets home. And I'm not saying there's not a time ever to say, wait till dad gets home. But if one parent is always perceived as the bad guy, then I can tell you if I were that parent, I get to point like, I'm not going to do it anymore. You know, because you're the, you're the cool parent that they always want to be around and they don't want to be around me because I'm the strict disciplinarian.

Noah: 16:28

Yeah.

Paul: 16:29

So parent on the same page, work together.

Noah: 16:31

Yeah. That's just a practical piece of advice. And, and frankly, not just in parenting, but for every part of marriage, that that's something that the more we can be on the same page and, and those, those who are listening, who have been married for a short time, like myself, you know, I've only been married seven years at this point. That is a continual process of, of changing and growing and, and kind of knocking off each other's, you know, rough, the rough edges and that kind of thing. And parenting is just one part of marriage that, that requires that sort of coming together and, and helping one another grow and, and that kind of a thing. One thing I want to make sure that we do mention in the principles of parenting, before we get too far into this too late into this episode. I'm speaking both from personal experience, so anecdotal, and I think just a well established observation throughout history. Children are far more intelligent than we often give them credit for, and they are able to see hypocrisy. Sometimes they're able to see hypocrisy more clearly than adults can see hypocrisy. And so one of the fundamental things that we have to understand as parents is if, is that the best first step in instructing our children, the first level of instructing our children, is to set the right example in our own lives. If we, we can instruct our children all day long, but if we turn around, And we act a completely different way than what we are instructing them and requiring of them. They will see through us like a window.

Paul: 18:13

Yeah.

Noah: 18:14

And that, that's incredibly important for us to realize that the parenting is not just about the correct information being transmitted and it's not just about the correct followup. When things don't go how they're supposed to go, it's about setting the right example from, from the beginning and Proverbs in Proverbs 14 says, in the fear of the Lord, one has strong confidence and his children will have a refuge. Our children are blessed when we have a proper fear of the Lord or Proverbs 20 verse seven, the righteous who walks in his integrity, blessed are his children after him. When we walk with God the way that we are supposed to walk with God, our children benefit and our parenting benefits.

Paul: 19:05

You know, that's one of the things I remember, you know, the consistency is tough and paying attention to your example is absolutely essential. You think about some of the practicalities of paying attention to your example. So, There were things, my children knew, there were things that Amy and I could do that they couldn't do. So, why is dad getting to eat popcorn at 10 o'clock at night? Because he's dad.

Noah: 19:36

Yeah.

Paul: 19:37

There's nothing wrong with me and popcorn at 10 o'clock at night and me telling you, no, you can't eat popcorn at 10 o'clock at night.

Noah: 19:44

Right.

Paul: 19:44

So that's not what I'm talking about.

Noah: 19:46

Right.

Paul: 19:46

But then the other side of the coin is okay. If dad uses a particular word and then I say to him, to my seven or eight year old son or daughter, you know, But you can't because you're seven or eight. Dad can because he's a grown up, but you can't because you're a kid. I mean, how does, how does a seven year old or eight year old process that? How does a five or six or seven year old process that? Like, here's grown up speech that's allowed, but kids cannot. And sometimes, kids, I'm afraid, hear us use words at home that if they use them in certain classrooms, in certain school rooms, under certain teachers or principals, not all, they would, they would get in trouble.

Noah: 20:34

Yeah.

Paul: 20:35

So those are the things I think you're talking about in practical application about our example. And, and we don't necessarily always equate that with blatant hypocrisy.

Noah: 20:44

Right.

Paul: 20:44

And I'm not saying that we should, but it's just be aware that the intelligence of your kids, especially when they, they perhaps don't even say anything to you. Right. They just, you made a rule, you fussed at me because I used that word, but they're, they walk away thinking, why does mom or dad get to talk that way? But I can't. And I may be provoking my children to anger, making them in bitter.

Noah: 21:09

Yeah.

Paul: 21:10

And then when I need to, because of a violation of a rule that's for their good, when I need to discipline, like proverb says to discipline, they're upset with me because they're, it's like, dad's never consistent. Why? Why? Yeah. So,

Noah: 21:25

yeah, I think that's really important. contextualization of that point. A really important unfold that and unpack that the way that you did so we can better appreciate the kind of example that we're talking about here, the way that we need to be setting that example. And obviously that continues Into the things, you know, like honesty and integrity and in that kind of a thing, how we treat other people with kindness and graciousness, all of these things that we think of from a positive standpoint. We want to, I think, generally speaking, we want our kids to, to grow up, to be kind, compassionate, polite. And if when we get in the car to drive home from the restaurant or from Bible class, The first thing they hear out of our mouths is complaining about this person and, and, you know, talking that bad about this person over here and it, you can see how quickly our example becomes instructive.

Paul: 22:25

Right.

Noah: 22:26

And we, and then we get, we, like you said, we get frustrated. Oh, well, why aren't they acting the way they should? Well. What are they watching? Us. Yes. And so we set that example for them. There, there's so much in the Proverbs about parenting and I really appreciate the emphasis, Paul, that you've put on this from the beginning, that this is not Paul and Noah's show. We both have anecdotal experience with parenting at different levels and in different parts of our lives. But in the end, what we want is we want to come back to the Proverbs. And we want to say, what does God want of us as parents? And what wisdom, what knowledge does he have to offer us so that we can do it better? That's what we're in pursuit of.

Paul: 23:13

Yeah. You started, I think, in episode one with the children are a heritage from the Lord.

Noah: 23:19

Yes.

Paul: 23:19

You know, the fruit. So if we look at our children as the Lord's blessing. as gifts from the Lord to bring us great delight. I think that's why he wants, how he wants us to see those when they come into the world. I have given you life, life comes from the Lord, and I've given you this child as a blessing. They're intended as a gift to bring you delight. So I'm connecting that with Proverbs 29, 17. So discipline your son and he will give you peace. Discipline your child and he or she will bring delight to your soul. So if you want delight, what has to precede that is discipline. And that's the Proverbs project. What does that discipline look like? What is that wisdom from the Lord? What does that look like?

Noah: 24:12

Yeah. And in the end, this is a testament to the wisdom of God's design. For the family and for the relationships between parents and children that when, when done according to his design, children are a source of joy and a source of comfort and a source of provision and rest throughout the rest of our lives. And that's something that is hard for me in my stage to even comprehend to think of my children as being that, that source of joy and comfort and delight as adults. I delight in them now, but how much greater will that delight be if they serve the Lord as, as adults. And I'm sure that you could offer more insight into that than I could. Children are a blessing from the Lord. And I, for one, am thankful to be a parent. And I am thankful. that God has put wisdom. He has recorded wisdom in his scriptures to help me as I navigate this stage of life. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've gone plenty long on parenting, I think. So I think we should go ahead and wrap it up. But We appreciate you listening with us. We pray that this study of the Proverbs has been a blessing to you and has helped you as you pursue the wisdom of God in your relationships and specifically for the purposes of these episodes in your parenting. Next week, Paul, we are coming back with a, with a different with a different section of Proverbs and a different part of the Christian life, and we're going to be talking about the allure of alcohol. Yeah, the allure of alcohol. I can't talk. The allure of alcohol. I'm going to get it one of these times. It's all this alliteration that Paul likes. It just gets me tongue tied.

Paul: 26:04

I didn't, I noticed I didn't put in the title sparkle or swirl or all of those S's. That's true. And it sparkles in the cup and it swirls around smoothly. The allure of alcohol. It can be a very deceiving and enticing thing. What does, what does the Proverbs tell us about this?

Noah: 26:23

Yes. So, next week we'll have I think a good discussion as we discuss how does scripture describe alcohol and what can we take from that honest look at alcohol? But until we come back together next week, our prayer for you is that you will continue to look to God and all you do to try to serve him to the best of your ability and that together we can do that and we can stand strong.