10.11 - Grace & Works (with BJ Sipe)

In this week's episode: Sincerity, the character of God, prayers for wisdom, and more! Thank you to my guest this episode, BJ Sipe.

Proverbs Made Personal – Proverbs 11:19
Topic of the Day – Grace & Works
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Noah preaches and teaches with the Cedar Park church of Christ in Cedar Park, TX. You can visit our site at: https://www.cedarparkchurchofchrist.org/

Transcript

Noah 0:00

Welcome back to the Stand Strong Podcast. As I've mentioned in previous episodes, the plan for the rest of this year is to have some guests come on and discuss some things with me. Sometimes we may follow the format that Paul and I had established, sometimes we may not. Today the guest is BJ Sipe someone I've known for a number of years and who labors in the gospel in Kentucky. And he's been kind enough to go ahead and accommodate the format that we've had established. And that's very generous of him. BJ, I'm glad you're here today.

BJ Sipe 0:38

It's an honor to be here, Noah. Appreciate you, and I appreciate Paul. Little bit of a connection for your audience. I used to work with Paul at Cedar Park before Noah did, Yeah before we, we moved on up to Kentucky, and so there's this little three-way triangle here with the podcast. And miss Paul, love the work he's done with you and just appreciate both of you and how you guys have worked together to bear fruit for the kingdom.

Noah 1:02

I appreciate that. Yeah, that's when I reached out to you, since I knew that I was wanting to get other guys to help fill in on this since Paul moved you seemed like a natural natural pick for a couple of reasons. One, I know you're comfortable with this general format, and I know you've got good things to... good thoughts and and perspectives to bring. But also I thought it would be nice for, since this podcast is primarily for the Cedar Park Church here that that I'm working with it'd be nice for them to hear a familiar voice even though Paul is gone,

BJ Sipe 1:35

absolutely.

Noah 1:37

Appreciate that. Since we are following the general format that we've been following we're gonna start with the proverb made personal is what we call it, and I asked if you would be willing to bring one. What proverb do you have in mind today?

BJ Sipe 1:52

So we're gonna be in Proverbs chapter 11, and we're gonna look at verse 19 because there's something that is said here that I think is a very important distinction for all of us to look introspectively at. And so Proverbs 11 and verse 19, and it reads this, and I'm reading out of the Christian Standard Version. It says, "Genuine righteousness leads to life, but pursuing evil leads to death." There's one word in there that I think sets this proverb aside and makes it extraordinarily important for us to pay attention to. And what word would you think that would be, Noah?

Noah 2:38

In the translation that you read from, I'm gonna guess that it's the word genuine.

BJ Sipe 2:43

That's exactly right. We live in a culture and we live in a world today that i- emphasizes following Christ as, as Kyle Idleman would put it, more of a fan, not a follower. Yeah. That it's something merely that we, is a part of our life, but it's not all of our life. And yet Jesus is calling us to have our righteousness even exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, as he told those during his ministry. And the point is not that we needed to be, even more righteous than they are. His point was they were hy- hypocritical in their righteousness. They were not genuine in the way that they honored God Having the appearance of godliness denies its power. It's not about just the appearance of righteousness, it's about genuinely following God with all of our heart, with all of our soul, with all of our strength, with all of our might, going back to the greatest commandment. And so this proverb is extraordinarily important and part of why it has been on my mind is we had a study recently where we were talking to this young man who was very openly engaged in all kinds of, immoral activities in his life, and we were having a discussion about that and just saying, "Tell us more about that." And you're telling us that you have a desire to follow Christ, but these are things that are present. Do you see a conflict with that? What i- you know, what is your i- idea behind that?" And his response back was I've given God my heart. He just doesn't get my body yet." And we're like- Oh, man That doesn't quite work like that." Yeah. And this is one of those proverbs that, that came up.

Noah 4:28

Yeah. Yeah. The... Y- you can't approach it that way and still call it genuine righteousness. I generally read from the ESV. When I was looking at this proverb I l- glanced at it in the S- ESV, the CSB, and the NASB. Those are my three to compare wordings. And I thought it was really interesting that the CSB uses that idea of genuine, and the ESV and the NASB talk about the idea of being steadfast in righteousness. And when you try to compare those two ideas, what, what's the common ground there? Yeah, it... When you look at somebody who says I'm a fan of Jesus," or, "I like things about Jesus," or, "I've given him my heart, but not my body," Yeah the fact is that's not gonna last. Either you're gonna give him everything, or you're really not giving him anything.

BJ Sipe 5:24

That's right. That's right. We say frequently here at Danville Jesus is not Lord at all unless he is Lord of all. And that's not, a statement. Jesus is gonna be Lord regardless of whether or not I honor him as Lord. That's a question of is he my Lord? I cannot call him Lord at all unless I make him Lord of all.

Noah 5:48

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good reminder. I appreciate you bringing that verse up. I'll throw one more thing in about this verse. The contrast that the Proverbs writer draws here about righteousness to life and pursuing evil and death th- that's such a clear biblical theme. We find that throughout scripture the idea that sin leads to death. And so this righteousness that is to be genuine it's the only path to life. And sometimes I think when we look around at the world around us, when we see what the world rewards and what the world praises, I think sometimes we can begin to question, the truth of this statement. And this is a... The, these kinds of verses are a good reminder. It's for me, it's a do not be deceived moment.

BJ Sipe 6:41

Yes.

Noah 6:41

The world may present things one way. Even our own experiences in life may feel like they're pointing in a certain direction that this type of behavior is what's rewarded and what leads to, to, good things, quote, unquote. And scripture says, "Don't be deceived." It's genuine righteousness. It's righteousness that endures, that's steadfast. That's the way that leads to life. There may be a way that, that that looks good, but that's not necessarily the way that leads to life.

BJ Sipe 7:14

Yeah. Yeah and- Yeah, and he talks about that a lot in the Proverbs not envying the wicked man. Yes. And all things at the end of the matter, as Solomon would put it, we're all gonna stand in judgment before God.

Noah 7:26

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 7:26

And so nothing will be left undone.

Noah 7:33

It's always good to spend a little time in the Proverbs and see how it fits our life today. But with that being covered, we're gonna go ahead and move into our topic for the day. And as I've mentioned to you, BJ, and for the sake of those listening I'll mention my approach to this with people that I'm having come as guests on this podcast I, I've asked, "Is there something that you wanna bring a topic that you've been particularly passionate about and wanna discuss in this kind of a format?" And so I... When I gave that to you, it seemed like you had a pretty definitive idea of what you wanted to spend this time doing.

BJ Sipe 8:17

I appreciate the opportunity, and there are so many good and important things that we need to be discussing. A- and we wanna be proactive, not reactive in our preaching. But that being said, this topic is something that hits on both of those things. It is something that we need to be actively teaching and talking about always, but something that I feel is really pertinent, especially since some current events. And not to get into any kind of politics or anything like that, but there seems to be a lack of balance sometimes in preaching that takes place, where everything works on a, in a pendulum in life, and we see this with a lot of things, right? Perhaps some false teaching regarding the Holy Spirit, and brethren go to the other direction and they neglect, that part of the Godhead and don't even talk about him at all, and so there's a pendulum swing. And the answer is not, one or the other. The answer is balance, right? That we need to have balance in the way that we approach different topics, different things. And the topic especially that I see a lack of balance in today, and this is something that I've personally been growing in, is that of the relationship between faith and works or grace and obedient faith. Understanding how those two work together. Because for many, they f- they will talk about these issues, God's grace and our obedient faith, as though they are opposed to one another. Yeah. And so you'll see some that emphasize God's grace, which we need to emphasize, but they neglect to emphasize obedient faith. But then on the other side of the pendulum, you'll see some emphasize obedient faith, which we have to emphasize, but they do so while neglecting to talk about God's grace and patience and mercy. And if we want to discuss this appropriately, there's going to be a balance.

Noah 10:23

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 10:24

And so for me, there's several passages that I think would be important for us to talk about together that are gonna bring out this balance. Yeah. And the first one I think that you and I agreed that we should talk about is gonna be in Ephesians 2.

Noah 10:38

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 10:39

So-

Noah 10:40

Yeah. Go ahead.

BJ Sipe 10:42

No, go ahead.

Noah 10:43

I was just gonna say I think your observation is correct. And I think we may get into this a little bit more later, but I think sometimes a good illustration of how we get ourselves tangled up in knots about these things where we even sometimes pit these biblical concepts against one another, is even just a moment ago you were talking about how sometimes it's contrasted as faith versus works which I think that terminology we mostly draw from James 2 if we're talking about it in those terms. But then you said, "Or sometimes it's grace versus obedient faith." And you'll... if you line those two things up, you suddenly see, wait a second, faith and obedient faith are- They're the same thing They are the same thing, and they've ended up as as mismatched, right? One is faith- Yes versus works, and if you were gonna draw a corollary to that, it would, on the grace versus obedient faith, which one would grace line up with? It would line up with the faith one, and obedient faith would line up with the works one. And- I think that's a good illustration of how easily we get ourselves tangled into knots. Yep. We're not even able to use terms consistently- because w- we're trying to, we're trying to navigate a minefield of what are, what is this crowd gonna think? What's that crowd gonna think? Yes. W- you know, what are people going to in- infer from what I'm saying? And I think that's why when you say there's some passages that we need to walk through in order to make sure we're speaking in a balanced and an accurate way about this if we can get back to the text and see how the text talks about it, I think we're gonna do a much better job of understanding it than if we just keep framing it the way that-

BJ Sipe 12:31

Yes it's

Noah 12:31

been framed.

BJ Sipe 12:32

Yes, 'cause the way we frame it is a false dichotomy many times. Yes. Yeah. And faith is always submissive. Faith is always from the heart. Genuine, real saving faith. It's never devoid of that and never has been. A- and so it is a false dichotomy, but it's one of those topics that we've got to redefine, define our terms in order to get back to the proper balance.

Noah 12:58

Yeah. So

BJ Sipe 12:59

Ephesians 2. You wanna read this or you want me to read it?

Noah 13:04

I can read it. What verses exactly did you have in mind?

BJ Sipe 13:07

I think the emphasis is gonna be, on verses eight through 10, but the context, would be important just to lay out. I can lay out the context, then you could read starting in verse eight, but- Okay the context is really bringing out, where we've come from, that we were dead in sin. And what changed is God's mercy and his great love, that he provided a way through Christ to take us from death to life. And that's really the foundation of this context. And so Paul's gonna emphasize what that means for us as a result because of this w- this way of providing for us that the law of Moses never was able to do. Yeah. And so that's really what he's gonna bring out starting here in verse eight.

Noah 13:57

So in verse eight from the ESV, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

BJ Sipe 14:17

I would love to hear your thoughts on this first, 'cause this is, for me, this is one of those very im- there's gonna be one word here that's gonna be so important for us to define our terms that I think causes so much of the confusion with this passage.

Noah 14:31

Yeah. I was just gonna observe, and I'd love to hear what you have to say there, but I was just gonna observe, so often we read this section without the context that you just helped establish. When you go back to verse one, he specifically says, "You were dead in your trespasses and sins." He uses very strong language to communicate the state before the grace, and I think that helps us understand the gravity of the grace that we're talking about and the necessity of the grace that we're talking about. When he says that you were dead in your tres- passes and sins in the ways that you once walked in verses one and two, that's n- that's not just hyperbolic language for the sake of being dramatic Paul is establishing our status as dead men walking. And that's gotta be in our minds when we get to this idea of grace in verses 8 through 10. That's right. So with that in mind, what were you gonna say?

BJ Sipe 15:35

So you're gonna have this foundation. The foundation of our salvation is God's grace- because without it, we could not save ourselves, right? The picture in Ezekiel 16 of Israel is really similar to our situation. This infant that is wallowing in its own blood that God comes by and says, "Live." Unless God acted, there's nothing that Israel could have done to save itself, and in the same way, we're the exact same way. There's nothing that we could have done to save ourselves unless God had acted, unless God had done something, and God did do something. That's what all of the Book of Ephesians to start with is about- Is everything that God has provided in Christ, what he's been able to do through Christ, and so that's God's part, right? God's part is providing a way for salvation. The question as a result is what is our part? And so he doesn't just say that we've been saved by grace. He says that we've been saved by grace through faith.

Noah 16:45

Faith.

BJ Sipe 16:45

And this is why defining our terms is so important because people will look at this passage and think faith there is just this intellectual ascent, right? This mental recognition of accepting God as he is, but when you look at how faith is defined throughout scripture, faith is always, genuine righteousness, steadfast righteousness like we just talked about in the Proverbs. It is a willingness to trust and submit to God, and so what Paul is bringing out here is not that we are saved by a, God's grace through a faith that does nothing, but he's saying we are saved by God's grace. He lays the foundation through Christ, and our salvation comes through a trust and submission to him. What he goes on to say, and this is the confusion in verse nine, when he says, "Not from works so that no one can boast," he's contrasting this with what the law could never do, the law of Moses. He's not suggesting that our faith does nothing. What he is suggesting is that the th- the idea that we can be the foundation, the source of our salvation apart from God's grace is flawed- Yeah because no one was able to keep the law perfectly. We cannot, through works of the law, justify ourselves before Christ, and that's the whole point of the Book of Romans, is that- he had to provide a way through Christ. But also the point of the Book of Romans is but that does not mean that we are not obedient, that there is not law, that there is not, s- submission that takes place. That's all a part of this. And so there is this balance we see in this passage between the grace of God and our call to obedience. That's not at all what he's discussing here in this passage, and that's been twisted in all kinds of ways because of using the wrong terms with faith and works.

Noah 18:56

Yeah. I think that's a really good point. If, even if we just back up into verse seven he talks about In the coming ages, he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us. And how? He says, "In Christ Jesus." This- this grace like you just said, it's something found in Jesus. It's not found through the law. The law was not capable to offer this grace. But Christ is. And so I think sometimes there's a fear that when we talk about what faith should look like, and if we wanted to talk about, for instance, in Romans, the obedience of faith that's mentioned a couple of times, sometimes the fear is when we start talking about that and digging into that, that somehow we're going to take away from the magnitude of God's grace. That- Once you start talking about that, then, hey, remember verse eight says, "This is not your own doing." Verse nine, "So that you may not boast." No one can boast about this. Unfortunately, what happens when we take that perspective is that we're actually in my mind, we're detracting from the magnitude of the grace found in Jesus because we're operating on the belief that somehow our actions toward God can somehow Make a dent in what Paul calls the immeasurable- riches of his grace. The fact that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, or the fact that faith is always seen acting in obedience if it's genuine righteousness, that, that doesn't detract from the grace of God at all.

BJ Sipe 20:53

No.

Noah 20:54

And so often I, that's the concern, that somehow we're gonna detract from God's grace. No. In fact, it's the opposite. When we respond to God's grace in faithful living and in righteousness and in obedience, that actually magnifies God's grace. Look what God's grace has done. Not only has it provided a way of salvation, but it has changed the way that we live.

BJ Sipe 21:21

That's right. It's transformative power. Look at what God has done, to me from the inside out, and that gives God glory.

Noah 21:30

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 21:30

And that's what even Jesus talks about early on in his ministry in places like the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah. When he says to let our light shine in such a way that when others see your good works, who do they glorify?

Noah 21:44

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 21:44

They glorify God who is in heaven. It's about him. It's not about us. We've earned nothing. But simply because s- obedient faith is conditioned for our salvation does not mean that we earn that salvation based upon that condition. I'm a simple-minded guy. You gotta explain things to me like I'm five sometimes. And so one of the illustrations I grew up hearing that I loved, and so I'll share it here, is, Noah, if I wrote you a check don't cash it, by the way. But if I wrote you a check for $100 million, right? I don't have that kind of money, but let's say I did, and I write you a check for $100 million just because. I wanted to give you a gift, right? And you've got it in your hands, this check written out to you for $100 million. W- for you to have access to that gift, what do you have to do?

Noah 22:44

I'm gonna have to open up my banking app and use the check deposit feature.

BJ Sipe 22:48

Now, you have to do something to accept that gift. Now, in doing something, have you now earned that $100 million?

Noah 22:58

Th- the obvious answer is no.

BJ Sipe 23:00

No, it That would be ridiculous in comparison to what you've been given to say because you did something. And this is, again, one of those false dichotomies that we've got to tear down, is this idea that simply because you have done something to accept this immense gift, that means you are now operating on a basis of works like the Law of Moses. That's not at all what Paul is suggesting here. Not one bit.

Noah 23:27

Yeah. Yeah I remember hearing that same illustration growing up, although I think the monetary value may have increased as time goes on. Inflation- Yeah,

BJ Sipe 23:36

that's

Noah 23:36

right inflation even affects our illustrations. Our

BJ Sipe 23:38

illustrations.

Noah 23:41

But but I think it's effective because people understand that the necessity of doing something in order to receive a gift does not negate the magnitude of the gift. And if we wanted to stretch that illustration even further... one of my favorite passages that I find myself going back to again and again is in Hebrews 11:6, where it says "To please God, you must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." And, my kind of paraphrase of that is that in order to please God, you have to believe not only that He exists, that He is real, but you have to believe something about His character- Yes about who He is. And the kind of the crux of faith in God is trusting in that character, acting as though God is telling the truth, that He remains true, that He fulfills His promises. You're acting as if that is the case. That's how you live out the faith. So if you wanna stretch that illustration of the $100 million check a little bit further me opening up my app and using the check deposit feature, or back in the day where you actually had to go to the bank and interact- with somebody in order to do that maybe it works better in that context. How silly am I gonna look if I go to my bank and I'm like, "Hey, I've got a check for $100 million," and then it bounces? But the fact is, if I really believed, BJ, that you had $100 million to give me and that you wanted to give it to me, I'd go to the bank and I'd deposit the check because I'm acting in trust, in belief- that you are true to your word, that you're true to your promises. Now, if we put that in the context of God, imagine God has offered this immeasurable riches, as Paul talks about in Ephesians chapter 2, and when we go to deposit that check- It do- it's not even a drop in the bucket of what God is capable of. We haven't depleted... Again, we haven't depleted his resources at all. We haven't depleted his ability to be gracious to us at all. In fact, we have just demonstrated his glory by acting- in faith.

BJ Sipe 25:52

And what you're suggesting is really the foundation for balance, in my opinion. This takes us to a different passage. I know there's more to say about Ephesians 2, but I think this is a good segue- Yeah to go back and look at when God reveals the name I Am in Exodus 34.

Noah 26:09

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 26:09

And God reveals his nature in balance, and that coming to know God will result in an understanding both of God's immeasurable grace and also God's holiness and expectations for righteousness. Look at what he says in Exodus 34 as he reveals himself to Moses, he re- proclaims his name, and it says in verse six, "The Lord passed in front of him and proclaimed, the Lord is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and abounding in faithful love and truth, maintaining faithful love to a thousand generations, forgiving iniquity, rebellion, and sin. But," there's a but, "he will not leave the guilty unpunished, bringing the father's iniquity on the children and grandchildren up to the third and fourth generation.'" Three things brought out here that are repeated over and over again throughout scripture regarding God's nature, that God is perfectly loving, perfectly just, and perfectly righteous. That's gonna be stated very clearly in places like Jeremiah chapter 9. And all of these create a perfect balance within the nature of God. That coming to know God means to understand his grace, but also understanding his expectations of righteousness and his determination to be just.

Noah 27:53

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 27:53

And so if I'm preaching a God that is full of grace but devoid of righteousness and justice and expectations of that, I don't really know God. But then again, if I'm preaching a God that has a demand for obedience and righteousness and justice, but is devoid of any patience or grace or mercy, again, I don't know God. If we want to be balanced in our teaching, it starts with understanding and coming to know the nature of God. Yeah. And this is a perfect example of that in this passage.

Noah 28:33

Yeah. And I think that example is heightened when you look at the context that this happens in. What is this immediately following?

BJ Sipe 28:42

The people abandoning God and worshiping this golden calf that supposedly just came out of the fire when Aaron threw a bunch of gold and stuff in there.

Noah 28:51

Yeah. Moses is so flabbergasted by their behavior. This is such a rid- a moment of ridiculousness and faithlessness, that he breaks the original tablets that, that God had given them, and this is when he's coming back up. So the Israelites have already demonstrated their faithlessness, and God's almost immediate response is to establish his character before them, is- and to state it. And when you think of it in that context, this isn't just God arbitrarily being like, "Hey, by the way, here's who I am." He's demonstrating he's commenting almost on their behavior before him and saying, "Listen, I am a gracious God and slow to anger." And the very fact that he's continuing with this covenant with them in spite of what they've done is evidence of that. And then he also reminds them, "But I am also a God of justice, and I will not clear the guilty." And when you think of it in that context I feel like that just further emphasizes to understand God even from the depths of a life that's just has reached the depths of sinfulness and faithlessness and rejection of God God's character is not affected by that sinfulness or that faithlessness. It remains the same, and his response- Yes will remain the same.

BJ Sipe 30:26

Yes. One of the things that Paul says that parallels everything that we're discussing here and Paul has an ability to take complex things and break them down into very understandable little nuggets.

Noah 30:41

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 30:41

And o- one area that Paul does this is in Romans 11 and in verse 22, and this is what Paul writes. He says, "Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity."

Noah 30:54

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 30:55

Severity towards those who have fallen, but God's kindness towards you if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off." And that's after talking about him dealing with his own people, not just the Gentiles who have been grafted in. God's expectation and his nature is the same towards all. And just as he revealed himself to his own people, it's how he reveals himself to the Gentiles.

Noah 31:19

Yeah. Like you mentioned earlier, there's a host of passages that we can go to try to dig into this concept further and this relationship between grace and faith and works and salvation. And unfortunately, in the time that we have, we're not gonna be able to get to all of those. But I would just... Something that I've encouraged others, and I would continue to encourage, those who are listening to the podcast now too often when we get into discussions about this or when we're reading passages related to this, we actually halt our own progress because like you mentioned earlier, there's a pendulum swinging, and we decide that we're gonna grab onto that pendulum. We're gonna swing one way or the other.

BJ Sipe 32:05

Yeah.

Noah 32:06

And so for instance, we've talked about Ephesians 2, and, it's tempting to go to Ephesians 2 and say, "Oh," but when we're reading it, don't notice that he doesn't say by grace alone or faith alone because we've heard other people insert those words- and so we're very quick to say, "No wait a minute. Wait a minute. Don't, don't add," instead of just reading it in its context and trying to understand what Paul is saying. A similar thing happens in Romans chapter 4 from the other direction. People who advocate for that faith alone mentality, they'll get to Romans chapter 4, and they'll say, "Look, it just says Abraham believed. That's all it says. Abraham believed." There's the f- the grace and faith alone. And it's a similar, it's a similar mentality that others will get into in Ephesians 2 where it's now don't add. Obviously we don't wanna add to scripture, but the solution to not adding to scripture is read the scripture in its context. Al- almost any of these contexts, whether it's Romans 4, other sections in Romans that we could go to Ephesians 2, James 2 Titus 2- Any of these contexts can, I think, ac- or will accurately comment on grace and faith and works and salvation as a whole without contradiction if we give them the chance to actually speak.

BJ Sipe 33:46

That's right. You mean we don't need to throw James out as an epistle of straw?

Noah 33:51

Oh, man. Yeah. The, that... Yes. The whole, I've- Especially recently I've seen some discussions online about Paul and James. They actually disagreed on this subject is what people are saying, and what we're reading is their disagreement, but but Paul's is correct. That's what people will say. And I think that fundamentally... there's deeper issues running there as far as fundamental misunderstanding as to the work of the Holy Spirit and inspiration, and- Yep and how that affects our understanding of scripture as a whole and... but the long story short of this is if, for those listening, if you struggle with understanding the relationship between grace, faith, works, and salvation one, you are not alone. That is something that's been wrestled with, debated, discussed for a long time. So you don't need to feel bad about wrestling with it. My encouragement would be don't let feeling... don't let that frustration of wrestling with it cause you to just kinda throw your hands up in the air and say I can't figure it out." I think what BJ has said as far as seeking the balance, the scriptural balance and understanding of these things can be done. Read the contexts of these kind of hot button verses- and consider it in the greater context of what God has revealed about himself, like Exodus 34. And I'm not saying it's gonna be simple, but I am saying it's there.

BJ Sipe 35:25

Yes. Yes. And maybe the first passage to start with in our own personal study would be one of your favorites, and actually one of mine, and that's in Titus 2:11-14.

Noah 35:36

Yes.

BJ Sipe 35:37

This is one of those passages that Paul lays it out as simply as he could for our understanding of understanding the relationship between these things

Noah 35:49

Yeah. Titus 2 11 through 14 is one of my favorite sections, and part of the reason is because Paul clearly states that grace doesn't just save us. And some- sometimes people hear that and they're like, "Whoa, wait, is salvation's a light matter?" No, salvation's a huge matter. And God, in his grace, saves us. But the demonstration- Yes of grace was not intended simply to save us. As you mentioned earlier, it's to transform us.

BJ Sipe 36:22

That's right. It teaches us.

Noah 36:24

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 36:24

It mentors us. It instructs us to live godly.

Noah 36:29

Yeah. Those genuine... If we wanna go back to the proverb made personal, it m- it trains us to lead lives of genuine righteousness.

BJ Sipe 36:38

That's right, and that's his summarization of the whole section, verse 14. He gave himself, so his grace, he acted, to redeem us from all lawlessness, so how we used to live, there's that part in Ephesians 2, and to cleanse for himself a people for his own possession. We now belong to him. He saved us. Why? Eager to do good works. He saved us for the purpose of transforming us, and that's what grace does. It doesn't just save us. It instructs us and teaches us.

Noah 37:15

Yeah. There's not time enough to do a more full treatment of this subject. If you're listening and you've got more questions about this and wanna discuss it further, obviously I would be happy to do that. I think I can speak for BJ. He would be happy to do that. Feel free to reach out to us and challenge us, ask us questions study with us. We'd be happy to talk about this more our next section of this episode. And this I've said this before on this podcast, this section has quickly become one of my favorites. It's a short section of each episode, just takes a few minutes, but we get-- I get to talk about what I've been praying about and why I've been praying about it and why it's important to me. And this has been good because it's been good for me to reflect more on what is in my prayers and why. And so I'll share that this is maybe a typical one, but I've really been running back to James 1:5 recently, and I've been praying for wisdom. There's a host of reasons to pray for wisdom. There's always a temptation to try to act in a self-sufficient way that, that we we've got it figured out, we'll make it through. Even if it's a little, fake it till you make it, we'll muddle through until things become clear. That's not really the attitude that we see in scripture. And in fact, we've got passages that say things like, "There is a way that seems right to a man." And how does that go? That ends in death. So there's always a need for wisdom. It, a- and it's there in every season of life. But it's especially been in my prayers recently because there are some seasons, and I'd say I'm in a season of life right now, where the need for wisdom is clearer to me, and I feel that need more heavily. And I don't think that would be surprising to anybody. Part of the whole instigation of bringing people onto this podcast is because my, my coworker, my lab- fellow laborer in the work here has moved, and he's a man who is older and wiser than me, and I have relied on him for advice. I've gone to him with questions, and he's been open to discuss things with me, and I'm sure he'd be happy to get a phone call regarding those things too. But the fact is I don't have that ready, easy access anymore, and so that's brought to my awareness the... I need wisdom. I n- I need guidance. And even the fact that I think about the church here. He worked with the church here for over 20 years, and now he's no longer here, and there's gonna need to be wisdom in in navigating the change that comes with that, and I need that wisdom. And just as a preacher, someone who's getting up and trying to declare the truth of God's Word, I I don't know if I've shared this with you before, BJ, but a prayer that I find myself praying every Sunday is regardless of what I have prepared Let me speak God's truth and let it help those who hear. Because in the end, I need the wisdom of God's word more, even more than the people I'm trying to instruct and teach. And I just want it to be helpful. It's just been really heavy in my prayers recently the need for wisdom to just navigate the circumstances of life and to navigate the work that I'm trying to do. So I... That was a longer explanation, but that's been on my heart recently,

BJ Sipe 41:16

I love your humility, and I love that prayer. It was instructed to me by one of my mentors to go to James 1 frequently, and he just said, "This is a freebie." You talked about, believing in God's promises. He promises this. If you ask- for wisdom, He will give it to you. Not in some supernatural way where I wake up and all of a sudden, bam, I'm as smart as Paul. It's not gonna work like that. But this is a freebie. Yeah. He gives us wisdom, and if we seek Him, we will find Him, and that includes His will and His wisdom.

Noah 41:52

Yeah. Yeah. And that's such a reassurance. And we shouldn't take it lightly. That's the thing is like in James 1, it's no small thing that James says He gives this. He does. Believe that He does. And in fact, James goes on to say, "You better believe that He does,"

BJ Sipe 42:12

ef-

Noah 42:12

Effectively. It- if you don't believe that He does James compares you to some unfavorable things. So it's not something to take lightly, but it is something to take to heart,

BJ Sipe 42:26

and I'll say this, too, just in one more thought about that. If we're not praying for wisdom- we're missing out because e- even the Apostle Paul did that. I- this is a really cool passage in Colossians 4 where Paul asks the Colossians to pray that God can open a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ for which I'm in chains, he says, "So that I may make it known as I should." Even the Apostle Paul, if we were to put anybody up on some kind of a pedestal and say he didn't need any help, with how to say something or to say it right or what to say, we'd say, "Okay, Paul gets a pass," right? I need help. Paul had it figured out. Paul himself was asking other Christians to lift his name up before God to help Paul to say things better. Yeah. To speak things as he should, and if Paul felt the need for others to pray for him for that, I certainly need that myself.

Noah 43:29

Yep. Yeah. That's a good reminder. that brings us to the section of the podcast where we talk about people's questions. Questions that I've received, whether it's through, I've got a... Just as a reminder to those listening, I've got a link in the episode description where you can submit questions for this part of the podcast, for this segment as well as a listener survey. I'd love to hear an idea of who's listening to this if you take a few minutes to fill that out. But this section we talk about questions that have been asked through those means or that have been posed to me in other situations. And I gotta say to those listening BJ's brave because I was like, "Hey here's the question that I was planning on covering. How about we do this?" And he hopped right on. So the question has to do with elders. And a two-pronged question, but in the end I think were very related. Why is having elders important to a church? And then also, what role are they really supposed to play? And there's... This could be episodes and episodes of material. And we're gonna try to do it a 30,000-foot view in maybe 15 to 20 minutes. But I will say this is one of those things that the more you dig into how people have understood the role of elder or shepherd the more you realize what a variety of perspectives there are on what is scriptural teaching about this role. Not just who's, quote-unquote, "qualified" to fill the role, but what the role even exists to accomplish or f- or, what function it serves. And so I think it's worthwhile in a similar thought to what we were talking about in our topic of discussion earlier, getting back to the text and looking at it in the context and going, "Okay, let's stop injecting our maybe cultural ideas into this or even our biases from our previous experiences into this, and let's just see what does scripture say why- about why this is important and what role they're supposed to play. So with that preface BJ, I'd be interested in hearing just your first kinda thought on that question and maybe how you might, in an elevator context, respond to somebody who

BJ Sipe 46:03

asks that. Yes. Yeah. I could talk about this, Noah, for days, and I do. This is such an... and especially talking about elder-preacher relationships, this is something I talk about a lot and I'll talk about that at the end. Okay. But I'll say this. So many places I've seen, this topic talked about, what people wanna do is they wanna jump right into the qualifications. And think about that, why that's backwards. If you were l- talking about a job, any other job or any other role, and you said here are, the qualifications for this role." You wouldn't start there. You would start by discussing, okay, but what's the job, right? What is the role in the first place? And so the Holy Spirit is going to use four different names for the same office. It's going to use elder, it's gonna use overseer, it's going to use shepherd, and it's going to use steward in Titus. And when you look at that, why does God use four different words for the same office, the same role? And I believe it's to help us understand what the job of an elder actually is. And so from a 30,000-foot point of view, this is how I approach this and discuss this with others. This office is called an elder because they are to act as spiritual fathers over this flock. It- they are likened to, if they are not able to, watch over their own household, how can they watch over the household of God? They are likened to being like a spiritual father. And so when you think about the role of a father a father protects and teaches and loves and disciplines, and yet does not do so with harshness and with an iron fist, but he leads by example. And that's how Peter actually gives this, account in 1 Peter Chapter 5. People wanna say there's two sections of qualifications for elders. No, there's three. 1 Peter 5 is just as much- a part of this as 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 And so they are spiritual fathers. Number two, they're overseers. And people wanna look at that and say that they're supposed to, do the budget and all these types of things- and decide, who, what company we're gonna work with to pave the parking lot." No. What are they called to oversee? When you look at the Book of Hebrews, they're called to oversee our souls. You know- Yeah overseers are in the people business. Other minuscule issues, those are all deacon stuff, right? Just like in Acts 6, the apostles were to dedicate themselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word. A deacon's job is to help an elder do their job. That's a deacon's job. To take things off their plate that would distract them from the role and purpose of which they're supposed to be doing things, and that is watching over people's souls. Hospitality, teaching, edifying, instructing, protecting. Those are the things that an elder is supposed to oversee. These other things can be decided, by deacons who are qualified to serve in those roles. It doesn't mean the elders don't get a say in those things or don't get the last word in those things, but that's not their role, their job. Their job is to oversee souls.

Noah 49:37

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 49:37

The third word that's used of elders is shepherd. And you think about a shepherd, and this is especially comes into play when I talk about elder and preacher relationships, but a shepherd's job is to lead the flock and to know the sheep individually. A shepherd's job is to feed the sheep. And so this is where we talk about elder preacher stuff. I've had this habit sometimes of understanding a congregation, and I'll ask elders when I'm visiting places, "What's being talked about today?" Or, "What's being preached about?" And they'll say, "I don't know." That's a problem. So almost all of my topics come from my shepherds. While I'm the one who executes the teaching and does a lot of the teaching publicly, even though our elders are always involved in teaching publicly and in homes every single week m- I don't decide where we're gonna study and where we're gonna go because that, I'm not qualified to make that determination. Our shepherds are. And so our shepherds are extraordinarily involved in teaching and protecting and feeding the flock. That's the job of a shepherd, is to be in front of the congregation and leading the congregation. And you don't see that many times. We have failed to uphold this office and the purpose and role that God has called it to because people follow the pastor model- that you see in many different religious organizations. The preacher is the one doing everything. That's not the biblical view. That's not- Yeah the biblical organization of the church.

Noah 51:15

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 51:15

And then the final word that's used of this office is steward. And I think about it this way. We have- three children, and in our will, if something were to happen to Kylie and I, we have prayerfully and very seriously thought about who would take our children if something happened to Kylie and I. They are our most prized thing in our life, our children, and we're not flippant about that. We have to trust with all of our heart the people who are gonna raise our children, 'cause are they gonna lead them to know the Lord? Are they gonna provide for them? All these things that go into, to play. And so I want you to think about that. Elders, or this office, are called stewards. It is who God has placed his most valuable possession, his children, in the care of until he comes back to get us. And so if God, through the Holy Spirit, is saying, "These are the kind of men that I entrust my most prized possession to, my own children, in their hands to care for them until I come back," that demonstrates God's trust in these men. Not that they're perfect men, but that they're trustworthy men if they're really qualified.

Noah 52:38

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 52:38

And if God trusts these men with his children, what does that say we should do to these men as well? We should trust them, too. And so all of these names the Holy Spirit has given to us to give us a well-rounded understanding of the role of this office. They are to operate as spiritual fathers, as those who are overseeing our very souls, that they are in front, and feeding, and protecting, and leading both the flock and individual sheep, and know their cry, and know their names. And then finally, that they are trustworthy men that God himself has entrusted his most prized possession with.

Noah 53:23

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good summary. I appreciate the thought that's been put into expressing it in those terms. And to somebody who's asking the question so why is it important to have elders in the church? I think part of the beauty of the-- of laying it out in the terms that you have is that it speaks to the needs that I think most people can very easily see. When you look at a church why do you have elders? Because there, there is a need for someone to fill this kind of role, the role of spiritual leadership and guidance and the the comparison to the father father figure that you talked about, and all of these... all of these things are things that I think most people who have some amount of self-awareness can go, "Yeah, you're right. A, a group of people need somebody who has a trustworthy character and spiritual maturity, and the ability to guide and to lead and to show compassion, and the ability to see the spiritual state of others and speak to that and guide them through that. I want that.

BJ Sipe 54:55

Yes.

Noah 54:55

Don't you want that? That's what elders are supposed to be fulfilling in their role. And the... when we think of it in those terms, I think the question becomes less w- why is it so important? What role are they really supposed to play? And it really becomes more a matter of, oh, man how can we find men- Yes who are fit for this role? And I think that- like you said, that's where we get into the discussion. We can go to First Timothy 3 and Titus 1 and First Peter 5 and we can look at what are often called the qualifications and others sometimes call it the characteristics of elders. But when we see the role that they're supposed to play, the character that they're are held to makes complete sense. Yes. Yes. Because you want men who are men of integrity, and men of sincere faith, and men who are devoted to their families, and men who are spiritually mature to fill this role. You wouldn't want somebody in this role who's not that way.

BJ Sipe 56:02

That's right. That's right

Noah 56:02

in fact if a man is appointed to be a shepherd, I would say he should have already been shepherding

BJ Sipe 56:13

Yes

Noah 56:14

in, in his personal life. Because you want men in this role who are able to fulfill its true intent.

BJ Sipe 56:23

Yes. And that teaches us a couple things, too. Number one, it's about who they are now, not who they were. Yeah. You look at these qual- that- these characteristics. No one could say that they've always been these things. Think about in your younger years, have I always been self-controlled? Have I always been this or that? And that's something that we've gotta consider is- Yeah when we are looking at men, I think sometimes we want to disqualify men because of who they were. So I'll say this, one of the greatest shepherds I've known is a felon.

Noah 57:01

Huh.

BJ Sipe 57:01

One of the greatest shepherds I know is a felon. He did six years federal.

Noah 57:06

Wow.

BJ Sipe 57:06

Now, that was many years before he became a shepherd, but that's not who he is now and was when he became a shepherd. And w- we've gotta recognize God's working on these individuals, too. These are not perfect men, but they are trustworthy men, and so we need to consider that when we look at individuals. It's not about who they were, it's about who they are, number one. And then number two, what this teaches us as we look at these roles is these are not, this is not a business. The church is not a business. It's not to be run by men who approach it like a business- and treat an evangelist like an employee, and treat the church like a business. This is a family. We say that at the beginning of every single sermon in Danville. The church is not like a family, the church is a family. It is the- Yeah household of God, and that is the way that we are to interact with one another, and that's the role of these spiritual fathers- is to lead this family. It's not a business, it's a family

Noah 58:11

Yeah. That's a good reminder. That's a good reminder. And unfortunately, what's... as not the Apostle Paul, but the Paul that we've both worked with has sometimes said, sometimes we allow the things out there to get in here.

BJ Sipe 58:30

Yep.

Noah 58:30

And one of the ways that I think we see that happen is not only in our attitudes, not o- not only in a Christian's attitude towards authority, we could get into that, that so here these men have been put in a role of authority. We know in America how we feel about authority. But also what's out there, what shows a man to be successful, trustworthy, capable out there- Does not necessarily translate to what has shown a man to be capable and trustworthy- That's exactly right and successful in here. And when we allow what's out there to get in here, we get, again, we get twisted around in knots. And I think that leads to questions like the one that we're trying to address. Yes. When people see elderships or groups of shepherds who are not fulfilling the intent for the role-

BJ Sipe 59:29

Yep

Noah 59:30

it's natural to ask, "So why is it so important that we have them again?" Yeah what are they really supposed to be doing? And so once you've been... It's one of those things where once you've been exposed to how elders ought to be operating- you go, "Aha." I get it."

BJ Sipe 59:48

Yep. And I think it highlights something else that is really important for us to discuss here, too. I think people see the need for shepherds, and so sometimes what happens though is people rush to put men into that office because they see the need.

Noah 1:00:02

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 1:00:03

But here's the deal An unqualified eldership is more dangerous than no eldership.

Noah 1:00:10

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 1:00:11

And I'm, and that, I'm gonna stand by that until the day I die. Because I have seen time and time again men put into an office because we bring what's outside inside. We think this is the right man for the job," when he's really not. Yeah. And I've seen so much devastation happen to churches internally because of poor leadership.

Noah 1:00:35

Yeah. One thing you said earlier is we're not putting men in this position because of who they used to be, right? We, like you mentioned the elder who had been convicted of a felony. Similarly, and this is true of deacons as well, we ought not put men into this office because of who they might become. Certainly we can't expect them to be perfect. We've said that multiple times. They're growing. They're, they are maturing into the image of Christ themselves. But we can't look at them and go I think he'd make I think he'd make a really good elder, Someday. someday. And so to facilitate that, we're just gonna go ahead and make him elder now.

BJ Sipe 1:01:15

No.

Noah 1:01:15

No. That- That'll cut the legs out from under it.

BJ Sipe 1:01:20

Yeah. We're looking for men who are already exercising these qualities- Exactly who are these things. Yes.

Noah 1:01:27

Yeah. Exactly. I had a bunch of passages, written down, and we've referred to several of them. 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, 1 Peter 5. There are others that, if- Acts

BJ Sipe 1:01:38

20.

Noah 1:01:39

Act- yeah, Acts 20 came to mind. Hebrews 13 has a couple of references in there. And then there are even really small references like in, in Acts 14 and in Titus 1 about the idea of, hey, this is a priority. Paul sent Titus to appoint elders. And in Acts 14, there was this appointment of elders that was seen as an important thing to get done. For those who are listening if you still have questions about the role of elders and that kind of thing scrub back about 30 seconds and write down the passages that BJ and I just listed out. And and then go look at those yourself and consider what they have to say about this role. I would love to keep talking about elders but I recognize we've already pushed ourselves on time. So that makes me want to bring us to our final segment here which is going to be this what are you reading, what are you hearing kind of thing. And this is a very flexible segment of the podcast, BJ as far as what you bring, it's really whatever you want to bring. So I'll just share with you one thing that I've been hearing recently because I've been just in the past couple of weeks, I've traveled 3,000 miles. And so- Nice I've seen a lot of people in several areas of the country, and I've heard three different people say this to me in three completely different contexts. Not original, heard it many years ago, but it was a reminder. Speaking of the church, it's not a small world, it's a big family.

BJ Sipe 1:03:13

That's right.

Noah 1:03:15

And that's been a good reminder for me because sometimes I can get caught up in, in frustrations with people or what disagreements I have with people. But as I'm tra- as I was traveling the country, running across people I haven't seen in years or who I've never met, but we have brothers and sisters in common that we appreciate no matter what else we have in common and no matter what else we might disagree on, What makes us a family and what gives us that connection and what brings us closer is that we have a common savior. We have a common king. We have a common faith in Jesus. And that was just a good reminder for me as I was traveling. The blessings of being a part of God's family abound, and one of those blessings is the people,

BJ Sipe 1:04:06

I can relate to that a lot. We just traveled about that distance or more going all the way out to California for two weeks, and driving all the way up and down California and- Oh, wow meeting all kinds of people, and that was that was a blessing. And the same thing, we've got group texts going on with people that we've never met, that we're now close to from our time there, and it just highlighted what you just said, so I love that. That's really good.

Noah 1:04:32

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 1:04:33

I don't know about what I've been hearing, but I can share what I've been reading.

Noah 1:04:37

Okay.

BJ Sipe 1:04:37

And so I'm an... If you don't know me I have a book problem. My wife continues to tell me that. I'm buying books all the time, and I'm always got my face buried in a book at some point. But three books I've been reading currently right now, and one I'm just about done with. The context for this book is, has been interesting. I've been, we've been studying with a Christadelphian, and if you don't know what a Christadelphian is, a Christadelphian is a unique sect of belief that really was the birthplace of the Jehovah's Witnesses faith and different things like that. But Christadelphians- Yeah reject hell reject eternal punishment, reject the deity of Jesus. A lot of things like that. But the deity of Jesus is what hinges on a lot of those things. And so in preparation in studying with this gentleman I bought this book to, to help me in preparation, and it's called Putting Jesus in His Place. Huh. And it is the case for the deity of Christ. And he... I really appreciated this book. Standard disclaimers apply. I'm not suggesting I agree with every single thing that this author says or writes. It's by- Robert Bowman. But what he writes, I, I really the breakdown of this. And so he has a HANDS acronym, H-A-N-D-S, in how he approaches the deity of Christ. And this is the outline of the book. Jesus shares the honor due to God, H. A, Jesus shares the attributes of God. N, Jesus shares the names of God. D, Jesus shares the deeds that God does. And then finally S, Jesus shares the seat of God's throne. And it's a really... It's been a really helpful way to break down a very complex issue- in a way that someone can understand through an acronym, HANDS, H-A-N-D-S. And I've just really appreciated the book so far. So if you're interested in it, you can get it on Amazon, you can get it on Christian Book. But it's a really, it's been a really good and helpful approach to preparing for talking about the deity of Christ.

Noah 1:06:54

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 1:06:54

So that's been good. The other two, I gotta plug our brother, Jacob Hudgens, and he's amazing. Ah. Jacob preaches out in College Station Texas. Do you guys get much time together, Noah?

Noah 1:07:05

Not a lot but we keep in contact just because we've crossed paths enough times that we like to talk about different things.

BJ Sipe 1:07:12

I love it. Jacob is, in my opinion the best author writing today in the Brotherhood. He's, he is so good at taking complex things and breaking them down in a way that everyone can understand. He's just, he's wonderful. And I take our interns, we've got an intern coming tomorrow and so this is the first book I take all of our interns through, so I've been going back through it again, and that's Humility Practice: 27 Ways to Think Less of Yourself and of Yourself Less. And he... We take this and apply it to preaching- Yeah and how the one who plants and waters is nothing. It is God who gives the increase. And we focus on how humility is one of the foundations of our work as preachers, because pride and ego have a habit of getting in the way of workers of the kingdom too often.

Noah 1:07:59

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 1:08:00

But that is a book that's good for everybody. And then this last one I'll plug that you've gotta go get is something that isn't talked about enough in the church, and that is this a personal trailblaze of mine, and that is the problem of pornography- Yeah because that's my background. That's what I struggled with for years in my life.

Noah 1:08:18

Yeah.

BJ Sipe 1:08:18

Jacob has done an incredible job, and it's called The Way of Escape. He and I visited about it beforehand. I got to read his book before it went public, and we got to discuss some of it. He has done an incredible job in approaching this in a way that is actually helping people with real transformation- Yeah which starts with the renewal of our mind. Too often we're dealing with the symptoms and not with the heart of the matter with this issue. And so if you wanna become better educated about that problem, or you know someone that is struggling with this is one of the best resources you can get your hands on. And so I just really wanted to encourage the audience there, and anyone who listens to this, go get this book because it is a game changer in this topic, in this discussion.

Noah 1:09:07

I appreciate that. I had wi- regarding the first book, I had not heard the word Christadelphian in a long time. I for- I forgot that it existed until you said the word. I was like, "Oh, wow." Yeah.

BJ Sipe 1:09:21

Very

Noah 1:09:21

niche. And it is niche, but it's a good reminder that when you cross paths with people we tend to lump people pretty quickly into groups and peg- Yeah people. But groups like Christadelphians and some of the things that are downstream of that, like Jehovah's Witnesses or other other sects that place themselves in the grander, umbrella of Christendom, if you wanna say that, like Mormonism- and that kind of thing.

BJ Sipe 1:09:48

Sure.

Noah 1:09:49

It's a good reminder that when somebody's working from a very different baseline than us engaging with them in conversation is gonna require a lot of listening and a lot of understanding before we can really speak in a way that's gonna be intelligible to them. Yes. That's a good reminder. And then the other two I've got a lot of love and respect for Jacob, and so I appreciate you, us recommending his books. I've read some of his stuff. I've not read either of those two, so I guess my book stack just got a little taller.

BJ Sipe 1:10:23

The School of Christ is excellent as well, if you've not read that one. And,

Noah 1:10:27

That one I have... I've read segments of it. I have not read the whole thing yet,

BJ Sipe 1:10:31

fantastic commentary on the Sermon on the Mount. Fantastic.

Noah 1:10:35

Wonderful. I appreciate those recommendations and I hope that those will be useful, not just to me, but to whoever's listening. BJ I appreciate your time today. I appreciate that you took a substantial amount of time- not only to record this, but I to give thought and preparation to, to the things that we are discussing. I really hope that this has been as encouraging to you as it has been to me.

BJ Sipe 1:11:01

It has. I'm honored to be a part of this. Love your work. Love the brethren down there at Cedar Park. Obviously, we have a mutual love for those folks there. And so if you're listening in, reach out, say hi again. Miss you guys and love you guys. But just thankful for you, Noah. Thankful for Paul, and praying God's blessings on him and his new adventures, and where he's off to. And just all glory goes to God in everything that we're doing.

Noah 1:11:25

Amen to that. To those listening, thank you for joining us. As a reminder, next week we'll have our second episode of the month. That one will be shorter, and it'll just be me. So sorry, no BJ that time. But we'll be continuing some thoughts in that episode. And as always, my prayer for you if you're listening to this between now and next week my prayer is that you will continue in Christ to stand strong.