10.13 - Pointing to God in Parenting (with Eric Wise), Part 1

This episode is the first of a two-part discussion on principles for parenting which we can draw from the character of God. Thank you to my guest this episode, Eric Wise.

In this episode, we discuss the way in which parents can and should point to God in the way we parent – in consequences, in compassion, and in dependability.

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Noah preaches and teaches with the Cedar Park church of Christ in Cedar Park, TX. You can visit our site at: https://www.cedarparkchurchofchrist.org/

Transcript

Noah 0:01

Hey everyone, before we get to the regular episode, I just wanted to give you a heads-up for what you're about to hear. I asked one of our shepherds here at Cedar Park, Eric Wise, to sit down and talk about some principles of parenting, especially, um, in relation to the character of God. And we had a really encouraging discussion, a really challenging discussion for me, and, uh, we ended up going quite a bit longer than we originally planned. So I've split this into two episodes. We'll release one today, uh, and then the second part will be released next week, and I've tried to choose a fairly natural break point in the recording m- to make that split. So I encourage you, uh, to, to listen to this week and make sure that you come back next week and listen to, uh, the rest of our discussion surrounding parenting. Thanks for listening, and now you can hear the actual recording Welcome back to the Stand Strong podcast. We are here for our first episode of the month of July, which means that I've got another guest, uh, with us today, and this one is here in person, uh, because for the, the Cedar Park group here, he's a very familiar face. I've got one of our shepherds, Eric Wise, with me today. And, uh, he has agreed to come and, and discuss some concepts surrounding parenting, uh, with me. But specifically, Eric, uh, thank you for, for being, uh, here today and being willing to do this. I know that recording is not always people's comfort zones, and, so thank you for doing that. Um, one of the things we've talked about is, uh, and, and I've said this in lessons, and I've heard other people say it, it's not original to me, but that the best thing a father can do, or really a parent can do, is to show our kids, uh, the Father, to point them to God. I know that we've talked a little bit about that, that concept. I think as good as that sounds in concept, and I think it's true, I think sometimes when we just leave it there, we're leaving meat on the bone, for lack of a better term. That, that's a good thing to say, but actually unpacking and digging into what does that mean. Um, what, okay, I'm a, I'm a parent. I've got two kids, three kids, four kids. How am I supposed to point them to the Father other than, you know, "Well kid- kids, go read your Bible"? Yeah. Like, obviously that's a good thing, but what am I doing to point them to the Father? So, uh, for those listening, I'll give you a kind of a heads-up as to how Eric and I are gonna try to handle this. Um, we're gonna talk about some areas where we should, as parents, be reflecting the characteristics of God, right? Um, and as we do that, we're, we're not just gonna say, "Well, God is this, and so we need to be this," but we're actually gonna try to dig into a little bit, okay, what does that look like for, for parents who are raising children? So, um, I think where we had talked about starting, uh, was I've, I've heard you say in other contexts and in preparation for this, Eric, um, that God is a God of consequences, and I was wondering if you could kind of unpack what you mean by that and why that's important, uh, for parenting.

Eric 3:30

Yeah, I, I, whenever I think about God being a God of consequences, specifically related to how we should be mirroring that as, as parents, I always think about, um, the story of Moses and the, the Promised Land. So in, in Numbers 20, Moses and ether- Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, "Hear now, you rebels. Shall we bring water for you out of this rock?" Mm-hmm. And so, uh, Moses here is taking credit for bringing water out of the rock. Um- And, and the water does come, but as a result of that, Moses is not allowed into the Promised Land.

Noah 4:09

Mm-hmm.

Eric 4:09

Um, and you see later on in, in Deuteronomy 3 starting in 23, "And I pleaded with the Lord at that time saying, 'O Lord God, you have only begun to show your servant your greatness and your mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do such works and mighty acts as yours? Please let me go over and see the good land beyond the Jordan, that good hill country and Lebanon.' But the Lord was angry with me because of you and would not listen to me. And the Lord said to me, 'Enough from you. Do not speak to me of this matter again. Go up to the top of Pisgah and lift up your eyes westward and northward and southward and eastward, and look at it with your eyes, for you shall not go over this Jordan.'"

Noah 4:51

Yeah.

Eric 4:52

Um, and you know, and, and as Moses is relaying this story to the people, uh, you know, he describes God as angry, you know? And, and God has been angry with Moses, but what you see at this interaction before his death when Moses is, is allowed to go up and not go into the land, but to look at it, you, you don't see an angry God.

Noah 5:12

Mm.

Eric 5:13

You see a God whose anger has abated. In Deuteronomy 34, "Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab, uh, to Mount Nebo to the top of Pisgah, uh, which is opposite Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the land." Um, and it describes the land and how far he, he sees. "And the Lord said to him, 'This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. I will give it to your offspring. I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there.' So Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in the land of Moab." Um, and, and I always go back to this story because what you see at the, in, in this case is, is God holding his children, um, accountable for their actions. There are consequences for Moses' actions. God's not angry, but after the anger has abated, he holds true to his promise.

Noah 6:06

Right.

Eric 6:06

He says, "Listen, here are the consequences for your actions, and those consequences remain in place even after my anger has abated."

Noah 6:16

Right.

Eric 6:16

And I think that that's a, a really, a, a beautiful picture of what parents should be modeling for their children. God's not reacting to Moses at the end of his life out of anger.

Noah 6:27

Yeah.

Eric 6:27

Um, but he is remaining true to his word. Um- I, I've said before and it'll come up again later, I imagine, in different aspects, but being a parent, we always say being a parent is so hard. You know? And, and that is true, but, but if you take, if you peel back that layer, what do we mean by being a parent is hard? Because being a parent is not complicated in, in many aspects, especially when your children are young.

Noah 6:55

Right.

Eric 6:56

Um, and when people say being a parent is so hard, oftentimes they're dealing with, with young children.

Noah 7:01

Mm-hmm.

Eric 7:02

Um, being a parent of young children is not complicated, it is difficult.

Noah 7:08

Right.

Eric 7:08

It is incredibly difficult, and it takes people of resolve. Um, it, you have to be people of resolve. You've gotta- I've heard it said by other people, Christians have to be people with grit. Um, and, and it takes grit. Yeah. It takes resolve to look at a repentant child who's begging and pleading, "Let me go over into the land," and, and praising God, "I have not even yet begun to see-

Noah 7:37

Yeah

Eric 7:37

all of your power. Please let me..." And what Moses is saying is, "I just want to keep experiencing your glory here."

Noah 7:44

Mm-hmm.

Eric 7:45

And God says, "That's great, but the answer's no."

Noah 7:48

Right.

Eric 7:49

Uh, that, that takes grit as a parent-

Noah 7:51

Yeah

Eric 7:52

to have that sort of resolve.

Noah 7:53

Yeah. It, it's interesting you say parenting is not complicated, it's, it's difficult. It, it tests us, it tries us, it requires, uh, grit, in your words. I think I can hear some people saying, "But wait, wait, wait. Parenting is complicated." And, and you clarified, especially with younger kids. Yeah. A- as you, as kids get older and their emotional state becomes more complex, and their relationships become more complex, and the types of things they're dealing with become more complex, I can see how parenting could get complicated. But as a parent of young children, I, I- When I hear what you're saying as far as it's not complicated, it's just difficult, um, I can see the complications that I see in my parenting generally come from me, not from the kids. Yeah. I complicate the matter because of my, my emotions and how, what I feel I should or shouldn't do, or, you know, my, uh, misconceptions about the state of the situation. That's what complicates things more than the actual having of the kids.

Eric 9:05

And, you know, and I give that disclaimer about younger kids, and it i- it is true. Yeah. When they're younger, things are easier. Um, m- the older they get, um, you know, all of the bad decisions just become much higher consequence. Right. You know, the stakes are so much higher when they're driving than when they're playing in the backyard.

Noah 9:24

Yeah.

Eric 9:25

But, I, eh, I'll say this, and it, people are, are free to disagree with me. It's still, and I've raised three, so no girls, three boys. But I have three adult children now, and I can say that raising them through even those, those more difficult and emotional teenage years, and as trying to be a parent to young adults-

Noah 9:48

Mm-hmm

Eric 9:48

I can say that still, um, it's, it's not that complicated. And like you said, the, the thing that complicates it often is, is us. The answer's right there in front of us. We, we just, we don't want to accept it.

Noah 10:03

Yeah.

Eric 10:04

The answer's very difficult. It's, this is gonna be hard. It's going to strain relationships, and I don't want to do it.

Noah 10:12

Right.

Eric 10:13

But often the answer is there.

Noah 10:15

Right.

Eric 10:15

Um, it, it's still, there are some, and there are some outliers. Like, yeah, as they get older, life gets more complicated, yes. Um, but also the answers are not out of reach.

Noah 10:26

Yeah, yeah. Which kinda goes back to what you were talking about just a moment ago, and maybe this will, you know, lead us further into the, the discussion, but, um, you were pointing to God's example here of there was anger of, involved, eh, God was angry about some of what went on, but the, the consistency of holding a consequence was not because God was angry. It was because there was a consequence that needed to be fulfilled. And, uh, I'm thinking of how sometimes we complicate things. It's, in one sense it's easy to maintain a consequence for our children when we're angry at them.

Eric 11:08

Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%.

Noah 11:09

It's like, "I'm, I'm angry at you, and so yeah, you're not going to get to go do this. You're not gonna, uh, have this privilege or this treat or whatever. You, I'm gonna hold this consequence." And when our anger abates, then we start going, "Oh, well I guess I'll soften up now." Um- And that's, perhaps that's us complicating the situation as opposed to maintaining the, the correct approach whether we're angry or not anymore.

Eric 11:39

Yeah, yeah. By all means, you know, the, the anger should subside. Um, you know, I, and I, I hope that for parents it abates very quickly.

Noah 11:47

Yeah.

Eric 11:48

But, uh, whenever, when the, when the frustration of the moment is gone, um, now, now it is your job as a parent to mirror God to your children. Um, and, and one of the ways that we do that is, is through consequence. Another passage, Galatians 6:7-8, uh, "Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever one sows that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. The one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life." Uh, and this is one of those, this is one of the principles. You know, some of God's, uh, commands through the Bible have, have changed, right? Things that he expected from some people he doesn't expect from other people. So his commands to different groups of people at different times have changed. But this is one of those things that is an enduring principle of God in how he interacts with people.

Noah 12:45

Mm.

Eric 12:45

Um, that, that is held true for forever, is that actions have consequences.

Noah 12:50

Yeah.

Eric 12:50

God is a God of consequences. Um, in, in Galatians 6 we see, "If we serve ourselves, the result will be corruption. If our d- work is directed toward God, if we serve him, the result is eternal life." Says, "Listen, I'm gonna lay this out real simply for you."

Noah 13:07

Right.

Eric 13:08

If we believe, and this is the, you know, the beginning of the passage, "Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever one sows that will he also reap." If we believe or we act like our actions do not have consequences, what Paul calls that is mocking God. He says, "Listen, God has ordered the world in a way so that our actions have consequences." Mm. That is a, a rule of life that God has established. And so if we flaunt that, if we go through life acting like that is not true, what we are doing is mocking God- Yeah Paul says. And that's something I think we should take, you know, very seriously, um, as, as Christians, and then also as parents. Um- The, the enduring part of this, and why I think it's so important, is, is from Galatians 6. The, a principle from Galatians 6 is that God will have consequences for our children.

Noah 14:10

Mm.

Eric 14:11

At some point, God is going to hold your children accountable for their actions. God will have consequences for your children. And since that's true, if you acknowledge that, that is definitely true, and since the consequences can be so terribly high-

Noah 14:30

Yeah

Eric 14:31

it is our job, we must teach our children that they will sow what they reap. Um, that is, that is a principle. It's not just a passage. That is a principle for the way God has structured the world. Um, and we have to make sure that our children understand that.

Noah 14:48

Yeah. When, when you frame it that way, I feel like that emphasizes the importance in, in a new light. Because, uh, even if we fail to h- hold our children accountable, God will still hold them accountable. And as parents who love our children- Shouldn't we want to prepare them for that responsibility? And the answer, I think, is obvious. Yeah, yeah- Yeah of course.

Eric 15:14

You know, we, um, we do so much to prepare our kids for, for the next level of, of education. You know, I've gotta make sure my kids are ready for, for high school. Mm-hmm. I've gotta make sure that they're ready for college, make sure they're ready to drive, make sure they're ready to enter the workforce. You know, well, and, and all of those things, like, we're preparing our children for life. Well, this is one of those principles, like, this is the way God has structured the entire world.

Noah 15:38

Yeah.

Eric 15:38

At some point in their lives, um, someone is going to, before, before judgment, so pre-eternal judgment, someone's gonna hold your children accountable for their actions.

Noah 15:51

Yeah.

Eric 15:51

Whether it's, um, you know, an, an educator, or whether it's a coach, whether it's a boss at their job that they get, um, whether it's, it's law enforcement. At, at some point, someone is going to look at your child and tell them no.

Noah 16:09

Right.

Eric 16:09

And they're going to have to listen, or their life's gonna be ruined.

Noah 16:13

Yeah.

Eric 16:13

Um, and so, you know, the, the time to learn that is not when they're 27.

Noah 16:19

Right.

Eric 16:20

Right? Right. And so they, they need to understand that that's the way the world is ordered- Yeah a- ahead of time.

Noah 16:27

Yeah. So I- there's a lot of different threads in my mind right now we're, that we could tug on in this way. Uh, one is that we could, we could say, okay, well, practically speaking, what does it look like to be a parent of consequences, uh, in order to reflect that, practically speaking? But a related question would also be, um, uh, God is clearly a God of consequences. You reap what you sow. Also, um, God is a God who is patient and compassionate, and, um, he, he cares, um, well, and all of this falls under the umbrella of caring for his children. But there, there is a patience, there's a compassion. I think of Exodus 34. I had, I had opened to this earlier. When God pronounces his name, he first speaks of himself as merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, uh, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will bone- by no means clear the guilty, and visiting the iniquity of the father, uh, upon the children. So the idea there, clearly in, there's this justice, and there's these consequences, but also he's a God of mercy and compassion and patience. So one thread that we can tug on is, okay, how do we be a parent of consequences? But the other part is also going to be, and when do I know, how do I know when the appropriate response is The, the long-suffering, compassion, and patient. Because these aren't opposite ideas. I think we've acknowledged that outside of the podcast. We've talked about these, they're not conflicting in God, so they shouldn't have to be conflicting in us. But I think if you ask the average parent around my age, you know, young children at home, um, we feel a conflict in- in ourselves between being compassionate and being consequential.

Eric 18:28

Yeah.

Noah 18:29

Um, so I don't know w- uh, what direction we wanna pull on all of that, but I, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Eric 18:35

Yeah. So o- one thing, um, I think that this is, uh, should be a, a giant, like, danger flag to parents. Um, we talked about reacting in anger. Yeah. It's easy to react whenever you're angry. Uh, the problem is that it's very easy to react when you're angry.

Noah 18:55

Right.

Eric 18:55

Um, and so we have to be very careful in the rules that we establish. Um, if we tell our children no, then the answer is just no. Like, that, that's got, that's got to hold true. Mm-hmm. We'll talk about later, like, we have to be parents that are worthy of respect.

Noah 19:13

Right.

Eric 19:13

Uh, we have to be people that our children can depend on, and when, when mom says a thing, this is what is true.

Noah 19:20

Right.

Eric 19:21

Um, and so we have to be so very careful in our speech. Uh, if we set consequences, um, and learning that there's a difference, uh, between misconduct, which would be, you know, um, at, in adults be seen as sin, I have sinned, versus I am living in rebellion.

Noah 19:43

Mm.

Eric 19:44

Like, there's a difference between those two. And so whenever we, we look at our children and, and we become frustrated with them, I think a good question to be asking ourselves is, is my child in open rebellion to me? And if they are, that has to be just squashed right now. Mm. Immediately. React in anger. I'm all for it. Uh, our children cannot, they cannot learn to live in rebellion.

Noah 20:13

Mm-hmm.

Eric 20:13

Um, but that doesn't mean that they have to be perfect.

Noah 20:17

Right.

Eric 20:18

Right? And so, um, one, a, a thing that we can do is, is be very careful in the rules that we establish and the way that re- we react to our children whenever we are frustrated.

Noah 20:30

Yeah.

Eric 20:30

Um, we can be frustrated, and then pause- And dole out the consequences later. Like, give yourself time to reflect. Because if I react in anger to my son right now, and I tell him, "You're grounded for, for a month," well listen, grounded for a month is the answer then.

Noah 20:49

Right.

Eric 20:50

But five, 10 minutes later, you reflect and think, "Well, that was a really boneheaded move of me." Well, the solution then is not to go back on your word. The solution, I think, is to be more careful with your words.

Noah 21:04

Mm.

Eric 21:05

Um, and that's why as parents I think it's so important that we not, we, we not lash out- Yeah and react in, in anger. So one, be more careful in our speech- Yeah and how we react to our children. Um, two, ask ourselves, is this child, uh, are they, are they being a child, right? Just like we sin and we fall short. Or are they in open rebellion against us? Yeah. And that should 100% guide which way we take the conversation. Um, kinda setting some, some framework. Um- When, when we start talking about extending grace to our children is what we're talking about, right? Um, I'm gonna mispronounce the name. Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

Noah 21:51

I think that's pretty

Eric 21:52

much- Is that, is that it? spot on. Yeah. All right. Um, talked about the idea of cheap grace. Mm. Um, he defined cheap grace as the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance.

Noah 22:03

Mm.

Eric 22:04

Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the cost involved, uh, hence the adjective cheap to describe it. Um, and so what we need to be sure then, the third part of it I think, is to be sure that when we're extending grace to our children, we're not extending cheap grace to our children. Like, the grace that we, just like the consequences that we extend have to reflect God.

Noah 22:33

Mm-hmm.

Eric 22:33

The grace that we extend has to reflect God's grace too, and God does not extend cheap grace.

Noah 22:39

Mm.

Eric 22:40

Um, and so a question t- that we could be asking ourselves, when we're extending grace, who does that grace benefit?

Noah 22:47

Mm.

Eric 22:47

Are we demonstrating God's long-suffering nature, or are we extending grace because it's easier for us? Right?

Noah 22:55

Right.

Eric 22:55

I grounded you. No, no driving for two weeks. You're grin- grounded from driving for two weeks. And then I remember that next week, wow, next week is gonna be so busy, and I was really planning on them running some errands, and picking up groceries- Yeah and driving their little brother to soccer. Okay, and so in order to benefit me, I'm going to ex- wait, you know, I'm using air quotes here. You can't see it. Right. But I'm ex- I'm extending grace, and I'm gonna be so gracious-

Noah 23:22

Right

Eric 23:23

toward you in a way that benefits me. Um, we, you know, we, uh, punish children, and then they whine and they cry. And so while the child is- Mm-hmm is pouting about their punishment, in order, you know, for lack of a better term, like, just to get them to shut up-

Noah 23:42

Right

Eric 23:43

I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna walk back that punishment a little bit. I told you you have to go to bed right now. Actually, I'll give you 15 more minutes of video games or whatever it is.

Noah 23:52

Right.

Eric 23:53

And really, it's for me because I'm just so tired of hearing you whine about it.

Noah 23:58

Right.

Eric 23:59

That's cheap grace.

Noah 24:00

Yeah. It, it's cheap grace. It's self, it's self-serving grace. And the, the terrible irony of it, and I feel like parents, y- you know, that have been around for a little bit can testify to this, uh, it will backfire. Because in the end, children are not dumb. And they pick up on that, and I mean, that's, that's why- Whining and complaining becomes a thing because they expect something will change because of that. Um, and that's a consequence of cheap grace. Real quickly, something I had written down when I was thinking about some of these things that I think, uh, goes really well with what you're talking about reflecting God's grace not being cheap grace. W- when I was contemplating it, God's treatment of us, uh, whether it's the holding of consequences or it's the extension of grace, um, it is both selfless, it... You think about what God has done in order to offer redemption, right? Yeah. That's selfless.

Eric 25:06

Um- God's, God's grace cost him.

Noah 25:08

It cost him- Yeah and it was selfless. It was for our benefit, but it was also for his glory, and sometimes we don't see how that can work out, that, well, God's doing it in a selfless way, but it's for his glory at the same time. The fact that he is re- he's redeeming a people to himself brings him glory, and it ought to. Um, when I think about our interactions with our kids, we're in a similar position except that we're out, we're outside the equation now. Because our, our interaction with them needs to be selfless. Our parenting should be selfless. The- if we're extending grace, it's for their benefit, not for ours. Yep. Uh, if we're holding consequences, it's for their benefit, not for ours, and it's also to bring God glory. And suddenly we're out- where do we fit into that equation? Where, where's our kickback from that? And, I mean, you could g- you could get into, you know, well, when you raise good children, down the road they honor their father and mother. You, you, you get to witness the fruit of that and enjoy the blessings of that certainly, and that's part of God's design. But when it really comes down to it- That's not why we're parenting the way that we are.

Eric 26:21

Yeah.

Noah 26:22

That's a, that is a byproduct that God has designed a good fruit that can be born. But in the end, our interaction with our children has to be a selfless interaction that's for their benefit and for God's glory, and we're, we're removed from the equation there.

Eric 26:39

Yeah. The one last note that I had on this part would be- Yeah um, if we avoid consequences for our children for our own sake because it's easier for us-

Noah 26:49

Yeah

Eric 26:49

either I'm not gonna impose consequences or I'm gonna walk them back, um, if we do that, we're not helping them, we're helping ourselves-

Noah 26:58

Mm

Eric 26:59

while hurting them.

Noah 27:01

Mm.

Eric 27:01

Like, n- nothing, nothing about that is neutral.

Noah 27:04

Yeah.

Eric 27:04

Um, you know, they might be happier and we're less stressed, but harm is being done.

Noah 27:10

Yeah.

Eric 27:11

Um, because Galatians 6, we, we are mocking God. We are establishing, in our home, we are establishing a rule that actions don't have consequences.

Noah 27:22

Right.

Eric 27:22

Paul was very clear, when we live our lives like that, we are mocking God.

Noah 27:28

Yeah. It, it makes me think of in Hebrews 12, the Hebrews writer talks about how God disciplines as any father disciplines his children. And he im- he, the writer implies in that context that if God didn't discipline us, it would essentially mean we're illegitimate children. Like, he's not, he's... Any good father disciplines his children, and if we are not disciplined, then we're not God's children. Um, if you take that principle- and you turn it around, it's, it's exactly what you're talking about. When we fail to- uh, hold, to hold consequences for our children, when we fail to interact with them in the way that you've been discussing up to this point, um, if we act like there aren't, you will not reap what you sow, um, then we're basically treating them, uh, without the care and love and affection that a father should treat his children.

Eric 28:27

Yep.

Noah 28:28

Um, so, and that, that's helpful for me anyway.

Eric 28:31

Um, b- part of your, the other part of your question was, um, you know, it can be difficult to mirror God's patience and compassion for- Yeah his children. Um, you know, some, some things that, that I've thought of that can help us to grow in that area. Um, one, be less selfish. Um, it's not about you anymore. Once you become a parent-

Noah 28:54

Yeah

Eric 28:55

like, you don't matter anymore, and the things that you want, you know, the, uh, one of my favorite phrases, like, j- "Well, suck it up, buttercup." You know? I, I, yeah, I acknowledge that this is inconvenient for you- Yeah or that you would rather be doing something else, and so what? Um, it, it's not about you. Yeah. Um, and so, so don't make it about you and what is better and easier for you. Um, two, be less distracted. Um, it is, if you're focused on something else while you're interacting with your children, if you have something else in the back of your mind while you're interacting with them, you will not be able to be patient with them. Mm-hmm. And children require a tremendous amount of patience. Um, so- If you have something else that needs to be done, that absolutely it needs to be done, then go do it.

Noah 29:47

Mm-hmm.

Eric 29:47

Because when you're trying to divide attention, you're not doing that thing service, and you're also not doing your children service. You're going to end up being frustrated and, and lashing out at them or, or giving poor consequences for, for minor behavior. Um, so go do the thing you need to do, and then come back and give your children 100%. Or leave the other thing for tomorrow- Yeah and give your children 100%. Um, something that has resonated with me, um, I've been convicted about, uh, recently, I, I caught myself saying, "There's not enough hours in the day."

Noah 30:27

Mm.

Eric 30:28

Uh, and it came to me, well, God gave you 24. So are you telling me He messed that up? Right?

Noah 30:35

Right.

Eric 30:35

Um, so, uh, if there's not enough hours, it's either because God messed... He just made a mess of everything when He designed the world, or you're the problem. Right. The way that you're prioritizing your life and the, the task that you're, you're voluntarily taking into your life, um, and the way that you're structuring it, that's the problem. And so, uh, if you find yourself, like me, thinking there's just not enough hours in the day, that's a you problem, not an hours problem.

Noah 31:08

Right. Right.

Eric 31:09

Um, hours, H-O-U-R-S-

Noah 31:13

Yeah.

Eric 31:13

problem. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then, and then three, so be less selfish, be less distracted, and be less exhausted.

Noah 31:19

Mm.

Eric 31:19

Um, when, when we are tired, we, people, you're on edge, just like- Yeah you know, that we understand that, and so structure your life in a way that you're not perpetually exhausted. In general, modern Americans are perpetually exhausted. They are overstimulated. Uh, we, we volunteer, uh, or voluntarily take too many things into our lives.

Noah 31:44

Yeah.

Eric 31:44

We overcommit ourselves. Um, and so that, those are, those are some things that I think can help.

Noah 31:51

Yeah.

Eric 31:52

Um...

Noah 31:53

Those, those are convicting things for me. Um, the be less distracted and, and be less tired, uh, ones especially speak to some things that I've, I have seen more and more in myself. And, um- When, when I think about the fact, like you were saying, this is, this is not a problem that God h- this is not a God problem, this is a me problem. Uh, I need to rearrange and prioritize to match where I am in my life, not where I think I should be, not with, again, like it's not about me, so not with where I pictured I would be or this idealized version of my life. No. This is, this is where I am, and it's not about me. Uh, it hasn't been, and it still won't be. So I have to, I have to adjust to m- to make sure that I'm hitting the marks that I need to hit. Um, so that's, that's really helpful. Yeah.

Eric 32:57

Uh, then the, the last part of it, um, and this goes back to, to mirroring the way that God interacts with us. Uh, so, you know, we talked about, uh, consequences and patience and how we can be more patient. Uh, I think- When you think about the notion of, of Christians either being sinful or in rebellion. Right. Like, I, I occasionally participate in sin versus I live a life of sin.

Noah 33:27

Mm-hmm.

Eric 33:28

Um, a thing to keep in mind when we demonstrate this, these personalities to our children is that God allows us to grow into maturity, and God acknowledges effort. So how do we balance this? Like, I, I have said that here are the consequences.

Noah 33:49

Right.

Eric 33:49

And little Johnny did not live up to the consequences. So how do I do that? Well, we have to also acknowledge that God acknowledges effort, and so that is something that we should be mirroring to them. What we don't want is to mirror to our children, "Here's the rules. It's black and white. Um, and if you, if you stray from the line, the hammer comes down." Uh, that's not the way that God interacts with us.

Noah 34:16

Yeah.

Eric 34:17

Um, so a couple of passages that come to mind. Hebrews 5, uh, starting in verse 11, uh, the Hebrew writer says, "About this we have much to say, and it's hard to explain since you have become dull of hearing." He says, "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food. For everyone who lives on milk is unskilled," he says later on, "but solid food is for the mature." And he ends in chapter 6 verse 1, "Therefore, let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity." And we use that passage all the time, no matter how we need to be more mature, we need to be more mature. But an often-missed point from Hebrews 5 is that there is a time that's appropriate for milk.

Noah 35:04

Mm-hmm.

Eric 35:05

Like, there, there is a time in our, our spiritual maturity, and obviously in our, our physical maturity-

Noah 35:12

Mm-hmm

Eric 35:12

when we talk about our children. Solid food is for the mature, but maturity does not happen overnight. It, it's by constant practice. It's a process. Uh, 2 Peter 1, "For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, knowledge with self-control," and he goes on with all of these things, uh, "for these qualities are yours and are increasing." He says, "Once you've added all of them, now they all increase."

Noah 35:41

Right.

Eric 35:42

Um, it's, it's, if it's our job to be our children's first view of God, we should be sure that we acknowledge effort in our homes. God calls us to be holy, Leviticus 11:44. Um, "I am Jehovah your God. Sanctify yourselves and be holy for I am holy." We are called to be holy. Also- God acknowledges effort.

Noah 36:04

Right

Eric 36:05

And, and God allows us, he, he structures our lives and our spiritual lives in a way that we're allowed to mature.

Noah 36:12

Mm-hmm.

Eric 36:13

Um, and I think that having that in mind can help us.

Noah 36:16

Yeah. Yeah. I, I know I was challenged, you know, in the not too distant past about, um... Well, and I think it was actually Michaela that kind of challenged me on this, and it was, uh, are you trying to hold the kids to a standard that you haven't adequately set for them? In other words, um, not only does God, does God make, uh, room for growth and acknowledge effort in growing in maturity, but God has perfectly, uh, given instruction I don't. And so- Mm there are times where not only am I failing to acknowledge that the, the kids are, they're trying, that they are putting in the effort even if they're not hitting the mark that I want them to hit, but also it's been pointed out I haven't really made it clear the mark that they're supposed to hit. And if I, if I don't, then how can I expect that they're going to hit it? Yeah. I'm, I'm holding to them, them to a standard that I haven't really communicated, and they're still trying. So that, like I should acknowledge the effort that's being made as well. So that's, that's been, um, something that's been very challenging for me and, uh, and humbling to realize, oh, yeah, this is... This response that I'm having, it really has less to do with how they're acting and more to do with my failure- Yeah you know, in that. So, well, I appreciate that. Um, and something that connects with what we've talked about so far, um, and so maybe, uh, maybe it just kind of goes hand-in-hand, and I don't know how much w- time we'll need to spend on it, but, um, we've also talked about before, you know, leading up to this, that God is a faithful God, and so he keeps his promises, um, and the effect that that should have on us as parents. Obviously, some of that is, like you said earlier, if the, if I said that the answer's no, then the answer, I, I have to make sure that the consequence remains no. Or if I've said that the consequence, I think you used the, you know, two weeks without driving, you can't drive for two weeks, then I need to make sure that I hold fast to the, the consequences that I handed down. Part of that seems to go hand-in-hand with the idea of God being faithful to his promises. Promises can be positive or negative- Yeah promises. Um, but I, uh... Do you have any thoughts on the, on the idea of how we can show God's faithfulness?

Eric 38:46

Yeah. You know, if you, um, the story of Joseph is, is my favorite in, in the Bible. You know, Genesis 37, God showed Joseph that his father and mother and brothers would bow down and worship him, and that dream was fulfilled, um, around Genesis 47. Uh, in Genesis 40, God showed Joseph he would be faithful in his interpretations of dreams to the cupbearer and the baker. Um, in Genesis 41, God showed Joseph he would be faithful, uh, in interpreting the dreams about seven years of plenty and seven years of famine. And so what's the, the result of all of that? So Joseph, he, he looks back at his life, and he sees in his life that God keeps his promises. Um, and so in Genesis 50, Joseph said to his brothers, because now at the end of the life- Dad's dead, and their brother's like, "Oh no."

Noah 39:37

Right.

Eric 39:37

Like, now the hammer's coming down. And Joseph said to them, "Fear not for I am the place of God. And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good to bring to pass as it is this day to save much people alive." When Joseph saw that God was faithful to keep his promises, and when he could see that God cared for him, he was able to trust God and know that God was working good in all of this. Um, whether I'm, I'm in a pit or whether I'm in prison or whether I'm in second in command of all of Egypt, what- whatever station I'm in, I know that God will keep his promises to me. Um- Yeah and knowing if you really, really know that, then the circumstances of being in Pharaoh's house or being in prison or being in a pit become less important in your life.

Noah 40:27

Yeah.

Eric 40:27

Um, and so, um, we know that God will do what he says he will do. Um, in Deuteronomy, Moses is recounting what all the Israelites went through. He said, "Look, if you do good, this happened. When you did bad, that happened." And so he's explaining this to the people kind of near the end of his life. He's like, "Hold on. Listen. I wanna make sure y'all remember." He says, "If you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I've commanded you today, the Lord God will set you high above all the nations of the earth, and all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you." The, he says, "The blessings will overtake you"- Mm he says, "if you obey the voice of the Lord your God." And then he goes on to say, "But if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God to be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you." And he says, "Cursed you will be in the city and in the field. Uh, cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl." And, uh, and all of these, all of the blessings will turn into curses. But he's, he's prefacing all of that, the promises and the curses, the blessings and the curses, with reminding them how God has been faithful to keep his word.

Noah 41:46

Right.

Eric 41:47

Um, and so the, the im- the importance of that, I think, cannot be stressed. We have to be people, um, we have to be parents that our children can rely on. Um, because then whenever we pronounce blessings and curses, if you do A, I will result in B, but if you do Y, it results in Z. They have to be able to take that to the bank

Noah 42:12

Right

Eric 42:13

Um, and the only way, the only way that Deuteronomy 28 works, the only, the only reason it matters is because the people are able to look back at the way God has been interacting with them for so long-

Noah 42:28

Mm-hmm

Eric 42:29

and see that God is faithful. In, in the 400 years of, of slavery in Egypt, God was faithful to keep his promise. Even in, even in that time, he was faithful. Since leaving Egypt, he has been faithful to keep his promises. Um, and so when they saw that, then they could trust in the blessings and curses. Blessings and curses in context of, of parenting today, uh, promises and threats Mm-hmm You know, they, they hold no water-

Noah 43:00

Yeah

Eric 43:00

if our children can't rely on us. Right. And if they can't trust us, what, why should they trust another father if, if they can't trust us?

Noah 43:10

Yeah. Yeah. That, and again, that puts in perspective what we're reflecting about God when we, when we do that. Uh, I think a word that I've, that has come to mind when I have thought about this concept before is dependability. Um, dependability is not just that, um, you know, someone will do the good that they've said they'll do. It's that they s- will do what they've said they'll do. And so my point is, it doesn't have to be like, oh, well, they said they'd come help me with such and such, and they're going to do that. But it's also going back to the consequences discussion when somebody says if, you know, an obvious example perhaps in parenting would be if you tell your child, um, "Here's the instruction. You are not to do this. If you do this, here is the consequence for that. Here's the discipline," or, you know, uh, whatever the, the consequence may be for that action. If then we don't follow through on that, that is just as much a mark to our children of being not dependable- Mm-hmm as w- if we say, "Well, hey, listen, you're doing a really good job on this, and I wanna motivate you, so here's a reward. If you, if you keep doing X, here's the reward." Clearly we, we tie those together. If we fail to fulfill on the reward, they're gonna see us as undependable. But the same is true of situations where we say, "If you continue in this behavior, here's gonna be the consequence," and then we say, "Never mind. There's no consequence."

Eric 44:43

Yeah.

Noah 44:44

Um, so dependability, uh, is, uh, uh, for me it's a helpful word when I'm trying to get my mind around this idea of faithfulness. Um, we're faithful to our word. Matthew 5, what is it? Verse 37, "Your yes is yes and your no is no." Yeah. That's enough, right?

Eric 45:00

You know, the, the story, it's, it's, it's always been interesting to me the story, um, in Joshua 9, um, the covenant that the Israelites made with the Gibeonites.

Noah 45:10

Yes.

Eric 45:10

So the Gibeonites come in and, and they, they snooker 'em, right? You know, and they, they f- they pull one over on 'em. Um, in Joshua 9, at the end of three days after they had made a covenant with them, they heard that they were their neighbors and they had lived among them, and the people of Israel set out, uh, and reached their cities on the third day. Now, the cities were Gibeon and the other cities that I can't pronounce, but- Uh, but the people of Israel did not attack them because the leaders of the congregation had sworn to them by the Lord, the God of Israel. Then all the congregation murmured against the leaders, but all the leaders said to the congregation, "We have sworn to them by the Lord, the God of Israel, and now we may not touch them. Now, this we will do to them. Let them live, lest the wrath be upon us because of the oath that we have sworn to them." And so they let them w- live and become cutters of wood and drawers of water for the congregation. Um, which ends up working out for the Gibeonites anyway, right? Like, that's still better than death. Right.

Noah 46:07

Right.

Eric 46:07

Um, but it's, it's always been interesting to me the leaders of Israel, even though they had entered into this contract under false pretenses-

Noah 46:16

Right

Eric 46:17

they said, "Listen, we may not touch them. We're gonna let them live, lest the wrath be upon us."

Noah 46:25

Mm-hmm.

Eric 46:26

Like, listen, if we go back, that is the importance that God places on being people of your word, is that even though they were lied to- The Israelite leaders said, "No, we will be faithful to our word."

Noah 46:42

Yeah.

Eric 46:43

Even though they lied to us, we are going to be true to our word. Um, and once the word was given, it, it had to be upheld, and that's just, that's always been a very interesting, um, look at, like, the gravity that God places on that.

Noah 46:59

Yeah. And I think there's a temptation when dealing with children that we, we go, "Well, you know, they probably... They, they took me too seriously," or, um, it's kind of a l- almost like a light thing. Well, if I, if I told an adult that I was gonna do this, then my reputation is on the line, or s- you know, we will somehow work it out in our minds that, well, this is really important that I uphold my commitment here because I've made this commitment to another adult. Children, eh. You know, it, which it's, the, the irony of that is, of the two, who are actually gonna be able to better recover from a blow to your credibility, a blow to your dependability? Another adult that goes, "You know what?" I recognize that you've dropped the ball on this, and I'm willing to show you, I'm, I'm willing, in my maturity, to show you mercy, to, to show understanding and patience with that. Or the children who are still learning what it means to be dependable and what it s- means to be credible and faithful. Who's gonna... Who's actually needs the greater measure of faithfulness? And it's the children.

Eric 48:11

Yeah. And, and I'll, let me, let me add one, one disclaimer here. So, uh, I feel like I'm, I'm coming down as like this, this black and white- you know, perception of, of parenting, and that's not my, my intention. Every- now, everything I said up to this point, I, I still hold in conviction.

Noah 48:31

Yeah.

Eric 48:31

Also, I understand that in my parenting, and I imagine in other people's parenting as well, they have, they've lived out these things imperfectly.

Noah 48:40

Right.

Eric 48:40

Um, and so what does that, uh, what does that look like? When you realize, so I want to extend grace. We talked about cheap grace. And what I'm extending is not cheap grace. What I realize is that I have, I've made a mess of this.

Noah 48:53

Yeah.

Eric 48:54

And, and I have, I have reacted poorly. Um, and I want to fix that situation because also, um, you know, punishing our children far beyond what is just does not reflect God either. Right. And so, how do we, how do we course correct, I think is a, is a good question.

Noah 49:16

Yeah.

Eric 49:17

Um, and I think that i- if course correction is needed, as long as we meet all of these other qualifiers that we've talked about, I'm not extending cheap grace. I'm doing this for their benefit, not for mine. I realize that I have done something wrong, uh, and I'm looking at a child who has made a mistake, who's not in rebellion. And, and all of these other things that we've talked about, all the boxes are checked, and I, I objectively look at it and realize I made a mess of this.

Noah 49:44

Right.

Eric 49:45

Um, I, I think that, and this is much easier when kids are older. So when you've got a three or four-year-old, the, and also when they're three and four, the punishments you're doling out are generally not that big. You know, it's not a month of grounding- Mm-hmm when they're three right? Right. They just, they go to bed early, they wake up tomorrow, and you start fresh. Um, but when children are older and they can understand, um, then it's time to have a conversation with them. And I've had the conversations with my children where I sit down and I say, "Listen." I messed this up

Noah 50:17

Yeah

Eric 50:17

Um, and, and I reacted in a, in a poor way. And so I am going to walk back what I said, not because what you did was okay, but because what I did was wrong. Right. And I am trying to course-correct my behavior. Um, there is still some punishment, right? Actions still have consequences, and we're gonna hold that in our home. Um, but actions and consequences are also, um, in line with each other, right? Yeah. They, they could... They, they should be, uh, in keeping with the severity of the offense.

Noah 50:55

Right.

Eric 50:56

Um, and so I've decided to walk this back because... And, and this is an excellent time to demonstrate to them that, that what you are trying to do is mirror God. And so you say, "Listen, there have been times in my life where I have, I have, uh, made a mess of things, and so, and God has extended me grace."

Noah 51:18

Mm-hmm.

Eric 51:19

And in my imperfect parenting, I reacted poorly, and I think that the very best way for me to mirror God's grace to you would be to change what I have, what I originally had imposed." Yeah. "There are gonna be consequences. The consequences have changed because I was wrong." Um, and I think that that, especially when children are older and you get into, you start interacting with teenagers-

Noah 51:47

Mm-hmm

Eric 51:47

who are young adults who, you know, uh, 150 years ago they would've been out of the house and- Right. you know, wandering across the prairie, you know, um, driving cattle herds north- Yeah you know, not that long ago in our, in our history. Um, y- they're, they're just miniature adults. Mm-hmm. And you can have these conversations with them and explain to them, and I think that those are the things. What we don't do is just change it-

Noah 52:12

Yeah

Eric 52:13

and, and just give in. Right. But we have to have that conversation, what I'm attempting to do here is mirror God to you.

Noah 52:21

Right.

Eric 52:21

And I want to show you, in some small way, the grace that he's extended to me-

Noah 52:27

Yeah

Eric 52:28

in, in my interactions with you. Right. And so if I can, if I can give that disclaimer-

Noah 52:33

Yeah

Eric 52:34

um.

Noah 52:34

No, I, I think that's very valuable coming off the tails of all of that because I think it helps round out the picture of what it means to- To s- be aiming to mirror God but not do so perfectly. Because, you know, someone could easily say, "Well, I don't see an example of God apologizing in scripture, so why would I ever- apologize to my, my kid?" Well, because you're not God. That's what I was gonna say. Right. Yeah. Um, and so the, the fact is, when is it appropriate to apologize? If we are not-

Eric 53:09

Yeah

Noah 53:09

properly demonstrating the characteristics of God, then that's an appropriate time to say, "This is an area where I failed, and I need to apologize for that failure."

Eric 53:19

Yeah. Like, when, when do you apologize to people? Well, when you've done something wrong. That doesn't change because they're your children. I apologized to my adult son last night, um, because I felt like the way that I had interacted with him was... I, I had done so poorly.

Noah 53:37

Mm.

Eric 53:37

And, and I, I wasn't as sensitive to the, to the topic that we were discussing as I should have been.

Noah 53:42

Mm-hmm.

Eric 53:43

Um, and, like, um, is often the case, my wife gently pointed it out to me. She goes- "Hey, I was thinking that maybe you should look- Right at it like this." And she was right. Um, and so the, the first thing I did was, was apologize and say, "Listen, I, I didn't intend for, um, for, for my words to come a- if they came across like this, it wasn't intentional."

Noah 54:06

Yeah.

Eric 54:06

Um, and so, like, when do you apologize to people? Well, when you've done something wrong.

Noah 54:09

Right.

Eric 54:10

You know, being a parent, having that control and power over them does not-

Noah 54:14

Right

Eric 54:15

negate that.

Noah 54:16

Okay, we're gonna have to pull the plug for now at that point. Uh, thank you again for listening to this episode. Come back next week, and we will jump right back in at this exact point in the recording for you to be able to hear the rest of the discussion with Eric regarding principles of parenting. My prayer is that this has been encouraging for you as it has been for me, and between now and next week when we continue this discussion, I pray that you and your family stand strong