STAND STRONG

10.15 - Our Commission to Teach the Gospel (with Don Hooton)

• Season 10 • Episode 15

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In this week's episode: Patience, the gates of Hell, digital baptism, and more! Thank you to my guest this episode, Don Hooton.

Proverbs Made Personal – Proverbs 25:15
Topic of the Day – Peter & the Gospel to the Gentiles
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People Want to Hear: Befriending and influencing younger people
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Noah preaches and teaches with the Cedar Park church of Christ in Cedar Park, TX. You can visit our site at: https://www.cedarparkchurchofchrist.org/

Noah

Welcome back to the Stand Strong podcast. This morning we've got a treat here as, I have another guest with me today on the podcast. Don Hooten, who preaches over in the Houston area and who is also a good friend of mine and, a colleague in various situations, has agreed to come on the podcast and discuss a few things with us. So Don, thanks for being here today.

Don

Thanks for inviting me, Noah. I'm glad to be here.

Noah

Don and I have known each other for a number of years now. I don't actually remember the first time I met him, but I think it was probably about 10 years ago in the context of a summer camp, and we've crossed paths a number of ways since then. And not only has he agreed to join me in this podcast, but he's agreed to, uh, to go along with the kind of segmented approach that we began at the beginning of this year. So, uh, he's been extra accommodating and, uh, I'm looking forward to- Happy to do it. I'm looking forward to, to doing that and, uh, having this opportunity. Uh, the, the first segment, uh, that we've been having is this Proverbs Made Personal segment. So that's where we share a proverb that, uh, we find particularly relevant or impactful and Don, I asked if you'd be willing to bring one. Uh, so what you got?

Don

Yeah, I, the study of Proverbs is exciting for me to consider. I've been doing a, a, a study of that actually for a year, and with an Africa group. I'm studying, uh, Proverbs with them online. So seeking wisdom obviously ought to be the life of every disciple, and especially someone who preaches the gospel. Um, making our life match the wisdom that God gave Solomon and other wise men of the aged. It just seems like I'm just excited that, uh, you, my younger man in this group, um, are trying to seek out Proverbs as part of our discussion. So the one that stands out to me, Noah, is Proverbs 25:15. Um, and I think it's because of how, uh, dramatic the pr- the writer places this picture. He writes, "Through patience, a ruler can be persuaded, and a soft tongue can break a bone." And I think the reason that I like it so much is it's the irony of how, I guess, the world kind of thinks that the way you win arguments in, in the, in our instinctual way is we're gonna bring the heat to the conversation, and by- Mm-hmm bringing the heat, we're going to conquer all. And yet the wise man tells us that that's not usually the best way, and he illustrates it by making the point that a ruler who can easily bring the heat to any conversation, and any ruler who has this power and to control the conversation The ruler can be persuaded by the thing you don't think he would be

Noah

Mm.

Don

Which is the patience.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

And the way parallelism works with proverbs, I don't think it's intentionally contrastive. I think it's, it amplifies it with the second clause that the soft tongue is what breaks the bone. And so the reason that I love this is because in the context of preaching, obviously, um, in my life, I think I've, I've learned that a lot. I've seen it a lot. I've done it the wrong way, and then I've learned better, I hope-

Noah

Mm-hmm

Don

to do it more the right way. But if I'm trying to persuade, the best way for me to persuade is through patience. And, you know, ironically, that's exactly what Paul told Timothy, 2 Timothy 2, that the Lord's bondservant is to be peaceable-

Noah

Yeah

Don

and patience even when wronged. So this picture of wisdom, it's just like almost everything else with God, is that he turns upside down all the things that we think are the ri- the wise way.

Noah

Mm. Yeah. And we, we have our own idea of what the best way to handle this would be, and so often when we look at the wisdom of God, it's the other way. It's the other way around. Yeah. Um, yeah. When I, when I read this proverb, y- uh, something that came to mind similar to, to the observations that you've made is I've actually said this out loud too. Um, if I, if I know something is going to happen, you know, positive, negative, almost-- it doesn't matter really across the board. If I know something's gonna happen, I'd really just like it to happen already. Um,

Don

Got

Noah

it. And, and, and the problem, the problem is, uh, especially when it's in the context of this is a positive thing, this is something that I, I-- this sounds like a decision needs to be made, let's make the decision, let's go ahead and do the thing, is that, um, it doesn't allow for deliberation. It doesn't allow for persuasion. It's just, "Listen, let's just get it done. Let's get it over with." And like what you said just a moment ago as far as with, with patience, this ruler is persuaded, it doesn't allow for that. It's kind of an all or nothing approach. You, you're either gonna come on board with me right now or we're gonna have a problem, and that's not what we see here in Proverbs. Uh, we see, we see the patience, and in the end, the more effective approach. It may not feel efficient, but what is the more- Mm-hmm effective approach? Um-

Don

Right

Noah

and as somebody who I think I struggle with the desire for everything to constantly feel efficient- Yes uh, these kinds of proverbs challenge me.

Don

Yeah. I often tell-- whenever I study the Book of Proverbs, I often tell my class I hate studying the Proverbs- because the mo- every time I come to them, I'm reminded of how the, how I've played the fool so many times in my life.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

You know?

Noah

Yeah.

Don

But, um, but, but it's interesting to me how the wisdom, wisdom comes from observation, and you can't observe something in the blink of an eye or in a, a prism of a single moment, or even a single 24-hour period. But the wise man observes, and I'm not sure that Solomon is the author particularly of this one proverb, but- Mm-hmm they are-- the wise men are observing as they've watched all these people come before kings and seek to persuade them. The wisdom of God is you need to be patient.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

And feeling too the pain of efficiency that you mentioned, uh-

Noah

Yeah

Don

I, I, I just-- gentleness and patience will always win the day. It will win the day with your spouse And it will win the day with your children. And-

Noah

Yeah

Don

at least I'm old enough to know that that's really true. And I mean, my wife is not my ruler, and my children are not my ruler, but if that applies even to the ruler, you know- Yeah how much more will that apply to every aspect of these relationships I hold important-

Noah

Yeah

Don

to be gentle and patient with?

Noah

Yeah, that's a really good reminder. Well, thanks for bringing that proverb, uh, with you today. I appreciate that.

Don

You're welcome.

Noah

That's gonna bring us to, uh, one of the larger sections of the episode, the topic of the day. And, uh, you know, Don, I, I gave you the opportunity to suggest, uh, what we discussed here, and I'm really glad you brought up what you did because, uh, not too long ago, for context for the listeners, uh, Don and I, uh, both participate in a, in a summer camp the last few summers, uh, for young men, and it's a, it's a Bible-focused summer camp, lots of classes. I think I, I was trying to calculate how many hours of Bible classes there were over the course of the week, but it's a lot.

Don

It's a

Noah

lot,

Don

for sure.

Noah

It's a lot, yeah. And this past summer at that camp, Don did a presentation, uh, to the young men one evening, um, that centered around some teaching that Jesus did to his apostles. Um, but it focused on kind of Peter and his coming to understand the Gospels, uh, the, the Gospel message being available to and, uh, necessary for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. And it was a really interesting presentation. I really enjoyed it. And then you suggested, "Hey, what if we talked about that?" So I'm really glad that you did that 'cause I think it's a, a valuable perspective. So I'll let you just kind of, uh, take the lead, and I'll, I'll chime in as I have thoughts, but, uh, I don't wanna hamper your ability to, to work through what you've got.

Don

No, that's great. Thanks, Noah. Uh, when we look at the story of Jesus training the 12, I mean, books have been written about the training of the 12 that were-

Noah

Yeah

Don

required reading for me when I was young in my preaching, that Jesus wasn't actually in-- was truly engaged in training these apostles to the work that they had, and he would've better understood more than any of us what lay ahead of their future and the demands that that would place on them. So when I began studying this special study on the life of the Apostle Peter, it suddenly awakened me as I began to read how often Jesus was pulling them away from Judea And pulling them even away from Samaria. They were uncomfortable in Samaria. Um, and then of course Galilee wasn't uncomfortable necessarily because there was a large Jewish presence in that area. Um, and it was Jewish really regarded. I mean, even the cities' names, some of them remained even, uh, Jewish names.

Noah

Mm-hmm.

Don

But what struck me is that in the text that I was using was from the Gospel of Mark, but you can find it also in the Gospel of Matthew, um, is that in, in Mark chapter 7, Jesus gets up and de- leaves and goes to the region of Tyre, and Mark tells us that the woman that he engages with is a Gentile. Mark 7:31, again leaving the region of Tyre, Jesus goes by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee to Decapolis. Well, Decapolis, the 10 cities, are an area established by Rome to maintain and really control the area, but they were very much pagan cities. Mark 8:10, they go to Dalmanutha, which probably historically is said to be on the south, yet east side of the Sea of Galilee, more of a Gentile territory. And then in Mark 8:27, which matches Matthew 16 verse 13, Jesus takes them to Caesarea Philippi. Now it really doesn't- Yeah take a big Bible student to recognize Caesarea Philippi is not a Jewish name.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

You know? And so Jesus takes them to this place where it was really at the foot of Mount Hermon, which in northern Israel during the, the, the golden days of Israel's history Um, that was the land that God promised them, and it really was, uh, part of their territory. Even King David likened the joy of unity from God's people to be like life-giving dew from Mount Hermon falling on Mount Zion. So, I mean, it was all part of their identity and connection to Israel's history. However, it was totally pagan in the time in which Jesus brought them to that area. Matthew's gospel says that they were going around the villages of Caesarea Philippi. But by Jesus's time, Caesarea Philippi had a courtyard area for the worship of Pan, a temple dedicated to the false god Zeus, uh- Mm-hmm the Court of Nemesis, a female goddess of vengeance, as well as a tomb temple of the dancing goats, which of course is somehow- directly connected to, uh, the worship of Pan. It was a- Yeah um, it was a worldwide gathering place. It was a grotto of idolatry. And so if you could envision that in... Because this is a podcast, I can't share a picture, but I mean, if you could see that, uh, it was, it would've been, uh, fascinating, I guess, from us from a modern perspective. But probably as Jews who probably never went there because they didn't want to ever be unclean-

Noah

Mm-hmm

Don

Jesus said, "Who do the people say that I am?" That's the question he asked them And many of them say, "Well, some are saying this, some are saying that." But then Jesus gets to the heart of the question, "Who do you say that I am?"

Noah

Yeah.

Don

And Peter makes that declarative statement of faith, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." You remember that Jesus will say in response to that, "Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overpower it." But if you visualize where Jesus is standing, if he is standing right here, that whole giant cliff of Mount Hermon would've been a giant rock. Mm. A picture that placed in front of it was every kind of idolatry the Jews would've despised. And there in that mountainside was a natural cave that had a cave of water coming out that flowed into the Jordan, which by the time of Jesus had been come, become to be known by pagans as the gates of hell.

Noah

Mm.

Don

In my opinion, Jesus is bringing them here because he wants them to see that there is nothing that will stand in the way of the work he's called them to. The gates of hell will never overpower it. And you can only imagine as a Jew, some way we're this way as Americans, we grew up in American culture and, uh, we've probably grown up around God and the mention of God. We mention God in our allegiances and, uh, and it's imprinted on our money. But the Jewish world lived in that little bubble, but it was a much smaller bubble, and Jesus was taking them outside of that bubble to go talk to pagans.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

And he needed the 12 to be unafraid, to take them to places they thought they would never go, to talk to people that they thought they would never go. And how does this apply to Peter? Well, that's where we come.

Noah

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I was turning over to Mark chapter 8, you know, where, where he asks that question, uh, in the, in the context of Caesarea Philippi, and I remember, I remember you showing a picture, uh, of kind of an illustration of what that grotto of, uh, paganism might have looked like based on some, you know, architectural or, or archeological reconstruction and that kind of thing. Um, and the, the, uh, one of the things that's so striking is, um, the- he's, he's talking about their faith in him, "Who do you say that I am? Who do you believe that I am?" Um, but he's not... He's, he's contrasting that. You know, the gates of hell are not going to overcome, uh, the truth of what, what Peter confesses. Um, they're not gonna overcome, uh, God's people. And he's saying all of that in the context of this, uh, this pagan idolatrous worship. But to your point, he's also pointing them ahead to the fact that the gospel is going to come, is going to overcome what they're standing amongst. And so- Right uh, there's... To me, it's interesting that this, uh... when you, when you envision it in this geographical context, he is both contrasting these, this pagan idolatrous approach to worship and, and religion to the true faith in Jesus, but he's also foreshadowing the fact that faith in Jesus will be as much for these people as it is for the Jews.

Don

Exactly. That's exactly right. I mean, when you, when you look at this, Noah, and, and of course ancient readers would've n- had no vision of what this looks like. And, and I'm not saying we need to have that picture in our head. We have the words that sufficiently provide for us the power of what Jesus was trying to convince the 12, is that for the world to hear the gospel, his disciples had to be unafraid. The only way they were gonna hear the gospel is for them to take it to them. And so that's where Peter comes into play with all of this, Noah, is that when we come to Jesus proclaiming that this gospel that he was going to give them was, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel." Uh, I mean, I suppose we've heard that so many times in our lifetime that we would've considered that those statements Jesus making to them wasn't res- revolutionary. Right. But there Jesus is telling them to go to the people that if they brushed up against them, they would feel unclean.

Noah

Mm-hmm.

Don

And Jesus had already been announced as the one who would bring a revel- a light for the revelation to the Gentiles. That's what Simeon says in Luke chapter 2. Um, even Jesus in John 10 will say, "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen." John chapter 10- Mm verse 16. And then in John chapter 12, even when the Greeks begin seeking Jesus, remember Jesus will respond in John's gospel, "Well, my hour has come." That we have this tendency to believe that Jesus didn't interact or intend to bring the gospel to Jew- to Gentiles or to non-Jews, but he was intentively, with intent is what I'm trying to say- um, bringing the gospel to them, and the apostles were witnesses of that. Yeah. So when Jesus says, "Go into all the world and make, you know, and preach the gospel, uh, make disciples of all the nations," uh, he said it more than once. It's hard to believe that the apostles did not realize it right away, or at least be activated to do something about it. The promise of the Spirit in John 14 was, "When he comes to you, this comforter, he will remind you of everything I've told you."

Noah

Mm-hmm.

Don

And he will give you everything that you need. He will teach you all the things that you need to know." So in Acts chapter 2, Peter's words clarify that he understood it. At the beginning of that sermon on Pentecost, "And it will be- Yeah in these last days," says God, that Joel said, "that I will pour out my Spirit on everyone." And then even when they respond, you know, all who are far off, as many as our Lord will call, you know, you will be saved if you repent and be baptized.

Noah

Yeah. So-

Don

So

Noah

I, uh, you know, you, you laid the groundwork all the way back from Luke chapter 2, uh, you know, the, the prophecy of Simeon all the way up to what, you know, what we might call the, the Great Commission, uh, in, in Matthew 28. And then the apostles clearly having some, some understanding and comprehension of it when the day of Pentecost rolls around.

Don

Mm-hmm.

Noah

And so the challenging thought is if this has been something that's a thread that can be traced back through the, the, the preaching and teaching of Jesus and his discipling of his ap- of his apostles, and we see it in the early teaching of the apostles in, in early Acts, uh, does that... Uh, when, when I hear that, part of me goes, "Okay, so why is there a tension when we get to, for instance, Acts chapter 10 and, and Peter has, has his vision?" Um, I mean, and Acts chapter 10 is not even necessarily, um... I, I mean, we- that's how we- that's when we typically place, okay, the Gentiles begin being converted. But would you say that is necessarily the, the case? That that's when Gentiles started being converted?

Don

I can't say with absolute certainty that that's the case simply because when we read about the Apostle Paul, or Saul of Tarsus, right, being converted, God is already saying, "You're going to take... You're my chosen instrument to take my name to Gentiles, kings, and Israelites," you know? Yeah. So he is the apostle to the Gentile. The Book of Galatians will d- or he'll self-describe himself that way. Yeah. But Saul was with the disciples in Damascus. You know, Damascus is not u- uniquely a Jewish city, though there was Jews present there. So it's possible, but we do know at least in Acts 8:4, Christians began scattering because of the persecution of Stephen. Yeah. And the first rec- record of evangelism among non-Jews is not one of the apostles. It's Philip-

Noah

Mm

Don

who goes to Samaria and begins preaching the gospel. So it just... And we're, we're reminded with consistency in those early chapters that the apostles are remaining in Jerusalem. I'm not, I'm not im- trying to impugn a motive I have no knowledge of.

Noah

Right.

Don

But I find it fascinating that you and I, we will make the comment that Peter denied Jesus three times 'Cause the text says so

Noah

Right.

Don

And then Jesus will return to him and three times ask him, maybe with variances of the word love, but he'll still ask him, "Do you love me?"

Noah

Right.

Don

And he'll say, "Tend my sheep." Uh, I don't think there's a preacher alive that don't, doesn't make that connection, that Jesus is affirming Peter with, "I know you've denied me, but I'm accepting you, and I want you to love me and tend my sheep," right?

Noah

Right. I've got a

Don

job for you. Isn't it... I mean, yeah, I got a job for you. And then three times the vision happens.

Noah

Hmm. In,

Don

in Acts chapter 10. In vision. I mean co- Yeah, in Acts chapter 10. Is it a coincidence or is it a divine incident that- Right God is trying to say something loudly to Peter? Um, and even Peter, when he sees the vision, the Book of Acts chapter 10 says he's confused by it. And what I was taken with is seeing how even Peter had to be reminded that the places God needed him to go were places he didn't really wanna go. Hmm. That the people He wanted Peter to talk to were not necessarily the people that Peter, Peter felt comfortable going to. And- Yeah what empowered Peter and the rest of the apostles, we will say correctly, the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit taught them everything that they needed to reveal the one standard of faith, the, the gospel in its entirety. All of that is so true But Peter seemed to struggle even with when in Galatians chapter two, when he goes among Gentiles and he's interacting with them until an entourage from Jerusalem arrives and he pulls back and Paul- Yeah withstands him to the face. That Peter is like us. And I, and I think- Yeah we need to, to see all of the story of Peter that God, through Christ of course, took the 12 to Caesarea Philippi to say, "Well, who do you really say that I am?" 'Cause whatever you say, it's gonna take you anywhere I need you to go. Who do you say that I am? Well, you are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Well, that's gonna take me to Africa.

Noah

Mm-hmm.

Don

And that's gonna take me, take you to whatever zip code you have to go to, you know?

Noah

Yeah.

Don

Or talking to that person, that neighbor, that family who you may have already reasoned before you talked to them, well, they're never gonna listen, or- Yeah man, they came from such a bad background, or they hang out with the wrong people. They're in a profession that isn't very holy.

Noah

Mm-hmm.

Don

There are all sorts of applications that we're watching the apostles deal with the things we need to deal with, that Jesus is taking us to places we thought we'd never go to talk to people that we thought we would never talk to- Yeah because of who we say that He is. You're the Christ, the Son of the living God

Noah

That's a really, I, I think, impactful, um, thread to pull on from the confession. If, if we're going to confess the same thing that Peter confessed, that Jesus is the Christ, that he is the Son of God, then that's going to have a, a practical implication in our lives, not just in our submission to him as the Christ, as the Anointed One and the Son of God, but also, um, a willingness to do what he has called us to do where he has called us to do it. And certainly, uh, you know, the-- we could put our hands up in the air right here and say, "Well, but we don't have the same, um, necessarily, necessarily the same clarity of calling that his apostles did," right? Like Peter got sent a vision- Agreed. Yeah right, got sent a vision three times that he needed to go and visit this centurion, visit Cornelius. Um, and we don't- Right we don't have that. Fair point. But if we, if we jump straight to that, then I think we're missing, uh, missing something that can be very convicting for us, that just because we don't have that same, uh, explicit calling through a vision, um, that, you know, Jesus provides doesn't mean that we don't have a responsibility that comes with our confession.

Don

Right. Totally agree.

Noah

Okay. So for me, that's... It, it's helpful in part because, um, I, I didn't grow up in the area that I live in now, and, uh, I always pictured myself being back, what I would consider back home, you know? Uh- Right I very much, when you say going places that I never thought I'd go, it- even my own zip code is a place that I never really thought I'd go. Right. And, and I, I don't want anyone hearing that to think the wrong thing and think, "Oh, well, he doesn't want to be there." That's not what I'm saying at all. It's just- Of course I could never have charted this path out. I, I never would have thought to chart this path, and yet here I am. That's

Don

right. Yeah.

Noah

Um, and so it's, it's helpful for me to be reminded that I am where I am, and therefore I need to make sure that I am using the opportunities that God has given me on this path that I never could have charted to use this path for His glory. And that means talking to people that maybe I never would have thought I would have talked to, and making a point of, uh, of investing in the people around me and the community around me in a way that I might not be comfortable with. And that's a very domestic, uh, application. Uh, I know- Absolutely you mentioned you go to, you go to Africa. Um, and I know other people that have gone to, you know, Sierra Leone, and, uh, I know some people that, you know, are living in Kenya, and I know people that have gone to Eastern Europe and, and done long-term, uh, mission work there. And so there's, there's all of those applications as well. B- but for me, part of the encouragement is there's, there's application right here, right now in my own zip code.

Don

Every day. Every day. And when we, when we see the training of the 12- To their unique task, we should understand that that training trickles down to us to our shared task. The task of being disciples who follow Jesus, we are still obligated in the sharing of the gospel. And Paul told Timothy, "You teach faithful men who will be able to teach others also." It's, it's an ongoing reality that without us, the gospel isn't shared. And I think Jesus on that morning, afternoon, evening when he stood showing the 12, "Who do you say that I am and what that really will do for you?" He said, "Nothing, even the gates of hell, will get in the way if you will follow through with what you say you believe, that I am who I say that I am, and I will guide you through it." And so it doesn't mean that we have to go beyond the, the ocean, across the oceans. Uh, sometimes it just takes us across the street to talk to that person who just doesn't seem possible as a contact for Jesus's message. But Jesus needs us to act just like he needed Peter and the rest to take the gospel where it needed to go

Noah

I appreciate that Well, that brings us to our middle segment of the podcast. I'm really grateful for the discussion we've had so far. This segment is kind of an opportunity to take a short break from the longer discussions that we have. And one of us can talk about what we've been praying about. And I went ahead and took that this time, and part of that is because, it's a kind of a personal question. "Hey, what have you been praying about recently?" Um-

Don

Right. It is.

Noah

And, I feel much more comfortable putting myself on the spot than somebody else. But I also think it's an opportunity to hopefully encourage you and encourage those who listen, be open and sincere in our prayer. What's been on my mind recently in my prayers is, um, on a personal level, something I've f- found myself repeating is some form of the idea, um, "Lord, I want you to use me." I want to have eyes that are open and a heart that is open so that I can see the work in front of me, and that I have the heart to do the work that's in front of me. Um, another phrase that I've found myself using outside of prayer is that I've sometimes described how it feels like life can just happen to us. You know, it's just-

Don

Yeah i-

Noah

if, if we don't do anything about it, we can just go day to day to day to day to day, and we're, we're just treading water, whether that be, you know, physically or spiritually. Right. And, um, and so this prayer that I find myself, I've, I have found myself praying a lot recently, "God, use me," is I think a response to that feeling. I don't want life to just happen to me. I want, I want my life to be something that actively brings God glory in, in every area of my life, and I want him to be using me, not me to just kind of be maintaining status quo. And, um, I, I don't know this, but I suspect that that's something that a lot of people could relate to.

Don

I think you're right It's, um, it's, uh, I appreciate your transparency, but I think the, the challenge of, I guess the challenge of prayer ultimately really is transparency.

Noah

Mm-hmm.

Don

Letting God see. Even we know that God can see everything in us, but telling God what's really in us empowers us to change and empowers us to do the thing that we know we can. Um, it's not a, a loophole, not the word. Loophole is not really the word I'm looking for, but It's not as if just, uh, voicing the word actualizes the behavior.

Noah

Right.

Don

Right. But it's- Right putting God in the role of God and allowing ourselves to be His servant.

Noah

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that's a good way of putting it. It's, it- God, y- y- God is in the role of God, right? There's nothing we could ever do to take Him out of that role in reality, but we can live- Absolutely like, we can live like He's not.

Don

Right.

Noah

And when we are willing to sincerely come back to the i- uh, to this idea, "God, you are God, and as God, I want you to direct me, and I want you to use me, and I want you to, uh, I want my life to be actively in your service," um, that's restoring the proper view of God as God.

Don

Amen. That's great.

Noah

Well, anyway, uh, I, I appreciate you, uh, bearing with me as I discussed, uh, my recent prayers. That brings us to the second longer segment in the podcast, and this is, um, this is the People Want to Hear segment. And, uh, occasionally we will get, uh, a question in through our, um, submission form that we have, which by the way, for those listening, here's a reminder that that is in the episode description. Every episode of this podcast, you can click on the link, uh, you can submit a question, and, uh, and we will try to, to touch on it as best as we can in the context of this, uh, podcast. But, uh, this People Want to Hear section, we pick one of those questions and we spend some time trying to, uh, unpack it. It's normally only about 15, 20 minutes, so there's a lot of times we can't fully unpack a question, but we can at least give it some, uh, try to address it in some way. So the, the question, and don't worry guys, I did send Don the question ahead of time, so I'm not just springing this on him- Yeah uh, right at this moment. But the, uh, the question that we decided to, uh, talk about this week, I'll just read here verbatim. Um, "I'm concerned about young Christians, especially how deeply immersed they are in temporary or even carnal things, especially through frequent internet and phone use. How can I befriend and influence the young people in my life?" Um, so there's a lot of layers to that question, and we're not gonna- Sure be able to dig through all of that today. Um, but I thought it would be, uh, a worthwhile discussion for us to have, especially since, as I mentioned, uh, to those listening earlier, you and I have a shared interest in younger people and- Right their spiritual development, and that's something that we both care a lot about. So I, I figured that would be a good, uh, option for, uh, for us to discuss.

Don

Excellent choice, it is. And the way I read the question, I'm assuming that the person writing the question was closer to my age than your age. And- um, so the advice, you know, that I immediately start conjuring in my head about what would I say to someone to, uh, help a young person is the, the first thought, you know, we have this tendency to, and- To isolate, diagnose, and insert solution. At least I'm, was, been that way an awful lot in my life. And, and, and also, and also all of my responses are, are all c- s- actually spring a little bit from our original proverb that Peter- Hmm needed to learn to be patient with doing things the way God wanted to, and he always wasn't. He not always was, is what I should say. And here we are again, those of us who are older, witnessing a younger generation, um, baptized in the digital age with-

Noah

Yeah

Don

so much information, so much imagery, so much of what, both good and bad.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

It would be easy just to cast out that digital age as a deterrent to spirituality, and I'm not sure that it is, any more than books are a detergent, uh, a detergent, sorry, a deterrent- to spiritual life. You know? Yeah. Solomon did write, "The writing of many books, there is no end," right? "Fear God and keep His commandments." Yeah. But the digi- digital age creates its own set of challenges and own set of problems, but if I'm to help someone who's younger, and I've had to wrestle with this myself and my kids. You know, we go through the process of giving them a, a, a mobile phone, how long-- I mean, my favorite story with my, one of my sons, who I will not name, he will remain nameless in the story, is, uh, gave him his first phone. We told him, "You're allowed," I think it was 100 texts in a year. Uh, not a year, in a month. Yeah. 100 texts. We, and we got the first bill, and the company, which was Sprint at the time, I mean, his part of the bill was something like, I don't know, $400 or $500. And because- Whoa he had exceeded his, he had exceeded his allowance, uh, for that. Yeah. We were able to negotiate it, and we joined on with a, um, unlimited texting and got all of that sorted. But, but you have that real challenge. And so if, if I'm older The proverb that speaks to this, Proverbs 20 verse five says, "The purposes of a person's heart are deep waters So when someone's using the internet, you know, there might be deep waters around what they're doing, but if the waters are deep, I can't see it. But the wise person, the person who has insight, draws them out, the proverb says.

Noah

Hmm.

Don

So as an older person, I n- I need to p- get people to draw out of themselves why they're so baptized in the internet. I myself have too much screen time. I keep trying to minimize it. Um, so this is not the pot calling the kettle black, you know? It's, it's an ongoing struggle that will forever be a problem in our society as a long live- as the Lord lets us live, and because the digital age is here.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

But I think for me, one of the things that I thought about is just asking, what do you really enjoy about that? Hmm. I mean, is it really bringing you joy? Or do you walk away from it drained And, and I think that that, that provides a gateway of communication to, I'm not standing in judgment 'cause I know all about it. But for me to pull the insight from the deep water, you see-

Noah

Yeah.

Don

Yeah what is it that you really, what really, what is it that you're looking for?

Noah

Yeah. Uh, that is, I think, really good advice because it, it kind of does two things at once. Uh, one of the things that I had written down when I was thinking about this question, uh, that we were gonna be trying to address is one way that we can try to befriend and influence younger people is ask good questions. Um- Yes so, so often our, our conversations with people that aren't in the same stage of life as us, um, can very quickly become shallow, kind of very superficial s- surface level types of conversations, and it's hard to get anywhere below that, uh, or any, any, any deeper than that because we just feel like we're in, in different stages of life. And, um, I think one solution to that is to take the, the selfless route, which- Mm-hmm generally when we're in a conversation, we like to talk some about ourselves. But the more- Of course selfless and the far more effective route is gonna be ask good questions about them, and then listen to that. And what I love about what you're suggesting is it's asking a good question about something that maybe you have concerns about. Maybe you have concerns about how much time this young person spends on their phone or on social media, you know, uh, their internet habits, their s- their social media habits. Maybe you have concerns about that, but it's, it's not coming in as an accusation. It's asking a good question, and it's giving them the opportunity to kind of unfold that for themselves and unpack that for themselves. And, um, and what we might find is there's more going on there than- Yes we realized.

Don

Yeah.

Noah

Um, so it- And sometimes- it does both of those things at once.

Don

Yeah. Sometimes we fill voids because we feel like- We're empty without it. Mm. But sometimes the quietude of life and the simplicity of life has its own fulfillment, even though there may be nothing there. Um- Yeah I mean, you can ask any young parent, and I'm talking to one, that when you get an hour of quiet in your house, it's a great reward.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

And sometimes the digital age fills the void with something artificial. And so allowing us to see what is it that we're really trying to fill with our time like that. Yeah. Um, I've-- You've probably heard people talking about retail therapy, you know- Mm-hmm where you get online, go to Amazon, and you buy everything, make yourself feel good. I've had to fight that with myself, too, you know. But-

Noah

Yeah

Don

the truth is, is that we have a tendency to do that all the time. We're, we're always filling a void. And so by talking to the young people, by getting them to see that is what they're doing, you know. You've got this, you've got this empty space. Let's find what you're looking for and find ways that I can partner with you in filling that time, you know? Yeah. And I think that that's ultimately going to be the best bridge builder to cross the gulf that we think exists between our generations, and- Yeah by caring about what they think.

Noah

Yeah. I, I think it means a lot when-- Well, this is gonna be an obvious statement because this is not a cross-generational thing. This is just a thing. Yeah. People appreciate it when we, uh, when we show that we care what the, what they're thinking about and what they're involved in. Um-

Don

Right

Noah

and so it shouldn't surprise us when that's the case for people younger than us, and I, I think sometimes there's a tendency-- I'll put it this way. You know, um, 15 years ago when I was still a teenager, um, I remember feeling like the old generations older than me, there were exceptions, but a lot of times people older than me would not estimate me To be, uh, capable of real worthwhile discussion and conversation or thought. And-

Don

Right

Noah

that's really a shame when, when we do that to younger people. I have found in my experience now as I get older and I have to make-- I have to fight maybe the same tendencies that generations before me have had to fight. Of course. Um, what I have found is that generally speaking, young people are far more capable, um, and far more thoughtful than I might give them credit for.

Don

Right.

Noah

Um, and if I can demonstrate to them that I believe that about them, I believe that you are far more capable and far more thoughtful and far more, um, uh, far more, far deeper, let's just put it that way, than-

Don

Mm-hmm

Noah

you might appear on the surface, they're generally willing to let, let loose a little bit more.

Don

That's right. That's right. And, and one of the-- There, there's a little bit of a turning, um, or a learning curve, I guess, is the r- what I should e-express, is that sometimes even from younger people, I have learned the, the danger of screen time and- Mm the impact that it creates on mental wellness, mental healthness, uh, health- healthiness.

Noah

Mm-hmm.

Don

And that mental health can be harmed by an overabundance of dependence on carnal digital things.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

And the only way I can convince someone of that danger Is not be the proverbial robot on, uh, the outer space show, um, which come, doesn't come to mind right now. Uh, the ti- title of it. You know, danger, danger, danger. Uh, but the pulling out of them, "Okay, what are we seeking? What are you looking for? Tell me about that," that then I can even maybe even for my own personal episodes, my own personal problems, my own personal experiences, the danger of making your life rely upon those digital spaces instead of filling those spaces with things like Philippians, you know, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, pure, lovely, and, um, admirable.

Noah

Right.

Don

Um, those kind of things flow because those are usually the things the heart is seeking. And, um, I use the, we're using the internet right now. It's not like it's an- Right evil tool. It's just that recognizing what am I really trying to gain- Mm-hmm and what am I really trying to fill? And the best way I can do that as a person looking at someone Is to recognize they're, they're their own body of water. Mm-hmm. And I just need to be wiser about pulling up out of them what they're needing to say.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

Um.

Noah

Yeah. No, I, that's, that's helpful. That's helpful. And it, it, uh, it really touches on a lot of the same kinds of thoughts that had, had crossed my mind, um, in trying to help answer this question. Um, because part of what you're really talking about is, um interacting not, not in a, um, not withs- in some sort of facade of like, you know, "Oh, I'm gonna be overly friendly, and I'm gonna try to be all hip and cool, and that's how I'm going to connect." It's, um, it's figuring out who they are, and s- speaking and interacting in a way that helps draw them out of what they may be stuck in, or helps draw out of them what is needed for a real relationship and a real connection with them. And that doesn't require us to be cool or hip or, you know-

Don

Yeah

Noah

be up on all of the most recent fads and slang. And what it requires is that we speak honestly and kindly. We regard them as a fellow, you know, a fellow Christian. If they're, if they're a Christian, then let's treat them as one. And- Right uh, and, and give them that regard, and just recognize, and if it-- for those who are listening right now, if you happen to be, you know, younger than me and Don, uh, don't take this the wrong way. Just recognize that it is what it is. Uh, we have to recognize when we're interacting cross-generationally like this, we're going to need to be patient-

Don

Right

Noah

in, in our s- in our speech and in our interactions, and we need to allow for the fact that there's still a lot of growing to do. Uh, I mean-

Don

Absolutely

Noah

you're doing that with me right now, right? Uh, eh, and, and sometimes we, we forget that that's happening all the time, that- Yes people who have more experience and more maturity, they are, they are the ones that are called to interact in, in a way that is, uh, admirable and kind and humble and compassionate towards those who are less mature.

Don

Right. I mean, just to go back to something you said earlier, you know, you want them to, to be themselves. You know, I don't need to use the, the slogans and the f- the words and everything else like that. Well, I want to be authentic with them because I need them to be authentic with themselves.

Noah

Mm.

Don

This is who they are, right? And, and I'll never get to know them if they are not authentic, and they're not gonna get to know me if... And, and, and that kinda leads me segues to this application of, um- Learning about someone is oftentimes done in tasks, you know? Mm. And so if I'm older, invite those young folks to come along with you, things that you love to do. I learned to-

Noah

Yeah

Don

lay-- I've learned to do lay floors. I've learned to hang drywall. I've learned to build fences because someone older, more wiser than me, who knew what they were doing, was willing to show me. Now, admittedly, I had to be authentically willing to listen- Yeah and learn. But the point was is those older gentlemen, and I've learned things from older women, by the way, you know?

Noah

Mm-hmm.

Don

I got set straight on one of my first sermons, my first year of preaching by an older woman in Archer, Florida. Mm-hmm. Told me what I said wrong about the Exodus, and she was right, you know? But the-- But, but I think that that's the point, is that if I invite them along with me in a tangible way, um, I'm building an authenticity that's gonna make them realize what really needs to fill the void. Yeah. It's people. It's people. And the only way for that is for me to lead.

Noah

Mm. Yeah. Well, that's helpful. Those are helpful thoughts and, uh, for those listening and, and who have asked questions like that, um, hopefully that relatively short discussion on, on, uh, young people and, and influence and, and friendship, hopefully that, uh, leads to a further development of how we can, how we can be helpful to people younger than us. I wanna be respectful of, of everyone's time, so I think we'll go ahead and move on to the, the final segment of the podcast. This is where we get to talk a little bit about what we've been hearing recently or what we've been reading. And, uh, Don, I'll, I'll pull the host card, and I'll go ahead and go first so that we can end on, on yours. Um, so I'll share- That's great. I'll share, just recently I started reading, um, the book "House Rules" by Jacob Hudgins. I've known Jacob for a number of years. I know you have as well, but I've never actually read- Yes uh, read this book, and so I'm excited to, to work through it. Um, but I was reading it, and he talks in the introduction of the book how homes are hypocrisy revealers, and I thought that was a really excellent way of, of putting it, and he kind of fleshes that out in the introduction. And as a young, young father, um, both young myself and having young children, I have seen that play out so many times already. And it will only- Yeah increase in the sense that as my, as my kids, uh, grow and mature and become more perceptive and more intelligent than they are already, they're going to see through hypocrisy even more easily than they ever have. Um, and so a quote that Jacob, something that he wrote in the introduction that I wrote down, uh, was, "How can I discipline them," speaking of my children, "for their lack of control when I have not disciplined myself?" And, uh, I'll tell you what, that hit very close to home, um, because that, that gets at the very core of what it really means, uh, to, to lead my family.

Don

Yes.

Noah

I can talk, I can talk all I want. Um, but in the end, my kids are gonna see what I say or hear what I say, and they're gonna see what I do, and if I haven't disciplined myself, my, my attempts to discipline them and instruct them will ring really hollow. Um-

Don

Absolutely

Noah

that's been challenging to think about.

Don

Of course. I can relate to that. And- Uh, so, um, it's a, it's a great observation from Jacob, um, great insight from you, and it's a great challenge for all of us to do that.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

The book that I- Well, what'd you bring? Like to... Yeah, the book that I, it's, it's a, it's not the usual book that I kind of read, um, but it's the biography of Sewell Hall, By the Grace of God. Oh, yeah. And I bring it up because of, uh, from a time perspective, um, his life And his presence in my life is gone, you know?

Noah

Yeah.

Don

But when I was young as a preacher, there was probably no other man who at that time positively impacted me like he did. Yeah. He got on his knees and he prayed with me during difficult times and helped me see things. In the book, which is really just a biography of his life, I think it would be good for many Christians to read the challenges that all men go through, particularly in the 20th century, a standing for the gospel in its difficulties whenever those occurred. But he makes a statement, which is an article that he had written in a magazine in 2002, uh, "Where We Are and Where We Are Going." It's in the appendix of the book. And the paragraph just I, I, I'd almost just wanna read the paragraph with the assumption everyone will know what I'm saying, but I'm not sure they will. Hmm. But let me preface it by saying that sometimes Christians have a way to categorize the political we. We don't- Hmm believe this. We don't do this. We, we, we, as if there's a power structure built behind that pronoun that we have control over. We, we.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

And he goes through in the article talking about how Many perceive of that from a organizationally denominational way.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

And then I would want us as Christians to never forget that we belong to a king.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

You know?

Noah

Yeah.

Don

We follow a savior, and the body of Christ organizationally is people. Yeah. And I, and I just love what he, he wrote. I'm just gonna read it if I may. It's not super long.

Noah

Yeah. Yeah.

Don

He just says, "One of the greatest problems among Christians is the tendency to identify too much with the first we's we mentioned. The restoration movement, churches of Christ according to the 1906 census, or even non-institutional churches of Christ, and even to consider the boundaries of such movements identical with those of the Lord's church. If any one of these is the we of our theme, then history proves that we can be and will forever be divided."

Noah

Mm.

Don

But in the we of our theme, referring to the host of saved individuals known only to the Lord who make up the true church of Christ, then we are in a kingdom that is indeed unshakable, indivisible, and everlasting, and that's where we are."

Noah

Mm.

Don

Four words. Well, a contraction, you know, but that's where we are. We need to see where we are.

Noah

Yeah.

Don

That if we're gonna resolve anything religiously in our world, it's going to come through the statute of truth that comes in scripture by recognizing who we are. Uh, we are nothing bo- nothing more than a, a band of people who are following a king. Yeah. And I just don't want to miss sharing with the younger generations the importance of understanding true undenominational Christianity.

Noah

Hmm. Yeah.

Don

So-

Noah

Yeah

Don

that's what I wanted to share. I,

Noah

I appreciate that. Um, and I think it is timely, uh, in, in so many ways. You know, he wrote that 24 years ago, I think you said 2002- Right he wrote that particular article. Um, and 22 years later, or 24 years later rather, um, it's still the, the bringing back the clarity of Christians are those who are saved in Christ, and we need to, w- we need to guard against trying to, to box that in any way that God does not. Um- Absolutely and, and to remain true to that spirit in our own faith on a personal level, um, that, that's really helpful and timely considering, you know, his passing. Uh, and that gets me even more excited. I, I purchased his biography back when it was first published. Gardner, uh, I, I saw a post by Car- Gardner when it was first published, and I, I went ahead and bought it, and it has been sitting on my nightstand for several months now, um, under other books that I'm trying to get through. And so I haven't gotten there yet- uh, but I, I'm, I may have to skip ahead to it because it's-- I've been wanting to read it and, uh, especially in light of his passing. But I'm thankful for him- Right and his endurance and his faith, uh, that he, uh, that he lived for sure.

Don

Yeah.

Noah

Well, Don, thank you for being a part of the podcast today. Uh, I have greatly enjoyed it. I always enjoy getting to talk with you

Don

And thank you so much for the invitation. I hope what we've talked about encouraged not just you, but everyone who listened. But it's a, it's a joy to me to talk about these kind of things, uh, just as I know it is for you, so.

Noah

Yep. Yep. And to those listening, thanks for joining, once again. My prayer, as I pray every week is that as we go from week to week and day to day, we will become more like Jesus, that we will live, stronger in His words, and that through our faith in Christ, we will stand strong

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Noah Diestelkamp

Host